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hewebb
Admiral

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USA
761 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/13/2016 : 04:18:56

It is time to replace my jib. I currently have a 150 on a Harken furler. Its draft is aft further than it should be even though the material is still crisp and I think it needs to be replaced. I am thinking about a 135 rather than another 150. The 150 is to heavy to fly in light air. Also thinking about maybe a sock instead of Sumbrella UV strip. I have both an A kite & S kite.

I purchased a new main last year from Ulman and wonder if I should go back to them for a jib.

Your thoughts will be appreciated.

1988 WK/SR w/inboard diesel Joe Pool Lake
Hobie 18 Lake Worth

Life is not a dress rehearsal. You will not get another chance.

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5851 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2016 : 06:24:24

What company made the 150, and how old is the sail?

When sailing to windward, the trick to getting a 150 to take on that curved shape that drives the boat in light air is to move all your crew weight to the leeward side and forward, near the shrouds. That forces the boat to heel. Since the wind isn't strong enough to hold the sail out smoothly in that curved shape, you have to find another way to do it. Gravity will do it, when you heel the boat. It will also help to use thinner, lighter weight sheets in light air.

The effect of moving the crew weight forward is that it lifts the transom partly out of the water, and that reduces the amount of the wetted surface of the boat. Reducing wetted surface reduces drag. Two or three crew will provide about the ideal amount of movable ballast.

A clean bottom is also crucial to light air sailing.

To sail downwind in light air, you really need to hold the jib out with a whisker pole.

A big, light weight, light air drifter might help a little, but truthfully, I don't think they help enough to justify that much investment. My thinking is that, if there isn't enough air movement to drive the boat with a 150, using these techniques, a drifter probably won't drive it much better. My suggestion is that you try these techniques and see if they work for you.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Edited by - Steve Milby on 02/13/2016 06:59:29

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2016 : 08:35:59

quote:
Also thinking about maybe a sock instead of Sumbrella UV strip.

That is what I have. The advantage is that the sail is notably much lighter without the heavy UV strips and will stay full in light air. This is so much so that I now never use my drifter. UV strips usually disintegrate long before the sail has lost its usefulness and will need to be replaced sometime down the line. This is not cheap and probably not worth the cost on an older sail.The new sail will cost less if ordered without the strips. The disadvantage is that it takes another 3 min to put on at the end of the day and you need a spare halyard.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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3754 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2016 : 10:06:51

I am definitely going with a sock on my next genoa. My 150 seems to have been made of heavier cloth than is common and with UV strip is much to heavy. I will also probably go with a 135 for its better shape when partially furled. I suspect a lighter 135 might due about as well in light air as a heavy 150 for a non-racer like myself, particularly without crew. I would defer to Steve's opinion on that.

Dave B. aboard Pearl
1982 TR/SK/Trad. #3399
Lake Erie/Florida Panhandle

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2016 : 11:53:57

quote:
Originally posted by Dave5041

I will also probably go with a 135 for its better shape when partially furled. I suspect a lighter 135 might due about as well in light air as a heavy 150 for a non-racer like myself, particularly without crew. I would defer to Steve's opinion on that.

I don't think there's a single answer to that question that fits all of us. Each of us has our own expectations when we sail.

The plain fact is that sail area means sail power. In 10-15 kt winds, you can afford to waste a little power, and the boat will still sail well. In light air, you can't afford to waste any power, because you have so little to work with. You have to use what little you have as effectively as you can. That means you use as much sail area as possible, you trim the sails as perfectly as possible, and you reduce drag wherever possible.

On my cruising boat, the C&C 35, I use a 140. I can sail with it in light air, but I'm sure I'm giving up a little power in light air. I'm willing to accept that on a cruising boat, because, when I plan to travel 30 miles to Annapolis, for example, I never sail in light air. Whenever I have a long distance to go, and the wind is so light that I can't average at least 4 kts boatspeed, I start the engine. The trip to Annapolis should take 5-6 hours. At 3 kts, it's a 10 hour trip. On those occasions when I race my C&C, it's usually in a charity race, where most of the participants are cruisers, and the race isn't very competitive. I can get by with the 140 in light air, and winning just isn't that important.

My Cal 25 is outfitted strictly for racing, and that's all I use the boat for. I have two jibs for it. One is a 155, and the other is a 130. I don't need a smaller jib, because, if the wind is too strong for the 130 and reefed mainsail, the conditions on the Bay will be too rough for the Cal, and the RC will stop the race. When racing, I want all the sail area I can get without paying an added handicap.

You don't have to be a racer to enjoy the challenge of sailing in light air. A cruiser who likes light air sailing might prefer a 150 to a 130. But, sail choice is always a compromise. If you buy a bigger sail for better performance in light air, you'll be giving up performance in strong winds. When ordering a new sail, each of us has to decide what is important to us, and decide which end of the windspeed range we want to favor. It's a damn shame that we can't just buy one sail that works as well in light air as in a near gale!

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Edited by - Steve Milby on 02/13/2016 12:01:16

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2016 : 15:46:30

Steve, Wouldn't a 150 be a pain to tack with in light air? My 135 will come across without help but I would guess a 150 would need assistance no? Not much fun to have to go forward for every tack if single sailing. Just guessing here.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2016 : 17:13:22

quote:
Originally posted by islander

Steve, Wouldn't a 150 be a pain to tack with in light air? My 135 will come across without help but I would guess a 150 would need assistance no? Not much fun to have to go forward for every tack if single sailing. Just guessing here.

Yes. That's one of the compromises you have to be willing to make if you want more sail area. A 100% jib is a real joy to tack, because it never snags on the rigging and you don't have to haul in much jibsheet when you tack, but it isn't much sail area. The bigger the sail, the harder it is to handle. If you use crew weight to heel the boat to leeward when you tack in light air, it helps, because, when the boat heels, the foot of the sail falls away to leeward of the shrouds, making it a little less likely to snag on the shrouds when you tack.

On my C&C, I compromised with a 140% jib. It was a little less powerful but a little easier to tack than a 150, it still sailed reasonably well in light air, It didn't lose it's shape too badly if rolled up a little in stronger winds. There are times that I wish it was a 150, but I think it was a good compromise overall. You can't get one sail that's perfect in all conditions, so your only choices are to either compromise on one sail, or buy 3 or 4 sails of different sizes. Actually, I also compromised on the number of sails. I have a 120 to use in the spring and fall, and a 140 to use in midsummer. Those two sails cover the wind range from light air to storm fairly well.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Edited by - Steve Milby on 02/13/2016 17:14:28

glivs
Admiral

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USA
822 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2016 : 18:38:11

Typically I sail our 150 only a few times a summer. It's a great sail when needed even if a little extra work. Use body weight as Steve noted and let the wind help move the sail across. I'm not racing so if something hangs I just steer to clear the snag and try again. No need to go forward. That said any suggestions Steve on attaching the sheets to minimize hang ups?

Gerry & Leslie; Malletts Bay, VT
"Great Escape" 1989 C-25 SR/WK #5972

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2016 : 19:46:00

quote:
Originally posted by glivs

...any suggestions Steve on attaching the sheets to minimize hang ups?

A larks head knot looks compact, and I used it for many years on my C25, but really don't think it works any better than using bowline knots. That's what I use now on both my boats, and most of my racer friends do too. Looking back, I think snagging jibsheets normally becomes less of a problem with experience. After you've been frustrated by it for awhile, you start to think about how you can prevent it from happening. Eventually, you learn that heeling the boat a little helps, and you learn to watch the line during the tack, and pull it past the shrouds when it swings away from the shroud a little, and you look for similar techniques. Snagging jibsheets is usually only a problem in light air, when the wind is too light to lift the sail clear of the shrouds, so you really only need to learn to deal with it in light air situations.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

hewebb
Admiral

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USA
761 Posts

Response Posted - 02/14/2016 : 04:23:20

Thanks All
I did change the sheet to lighter line and it is a single line with a short, small Dyneema section for the whisker pole (sheet bend with bowling at clew). I normally sail solo or with just one other person on board. I am trying to get the boat to point a little better even though it is a wing keel. The only thing I can think of is a better head sail.

1988 WK/SR w/inboard diesel Joe Pool Lake
Hobie 18 Lake Worth

Life is not a dress rehearsal. You will not get another chance.

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