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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Catalina 250 sailing speed?

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Chief RA
Chief Technical Advisor

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USA
191 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/13/2015 : 20:30:04

I have a Catalina 250 tall mast wing keel. Is this boat rated as fast in its class? I do not race but just curious if it has any agility. I owned a 26 Clipper Marine and currently feel it would smoke this boat! Don't misunderstand, I like this boat but do not perceive it is particularly fast. What is the report? Chief

COMPASS ROSE C250WK
Tall Mast, Wing keel
PORT CHIEF, Bodega Bay Ca.
IE,EE,FCC lic #1890

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2015 : 20:40:24

My C25, with tall rig and fin keel was very fast, and I raced it against some well sailed C250s that could occasionally beat it. But, the C250 can't be sailed the same way that we sail more conventional boats. C250s don't like to be over-canvassed, and they don't like to heel much. The C250 WK is usually rated 228 by PHRF, which is about the norm for a 25' boat. I found a PHRF rating for a Clipper Marine 26 SK of 246, somewhat slower.

Steve Milby J/24 "Captiva Wind"
previously C&C 35, Cal 25, C25 TR/FK, C22
Past Commodore

Edited by - Steve Milby on 07/14/2015 04:52:17

Chief RA
Chief Technical Advisor

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USA
191 Posts

Response Posted - 07/14/2015 : 07:41:47

Thanks Steve, I appreciate your evaluation. Guess I just need to get used to her more. Chief

COMPASS ROSE C250WK
Tall Mast, Wing keel
PORT CHIEF, Bodega Bay Ca.
IE,EE,FCC lic #1890

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9014 Posts

Response Posted - 07/14/2015 : 10:17:00

Perhaps related to Steve's comments about heeling, Catalina dropped the tall mast option just a few years into the C-250's production life. Perhaps they concluded it didn't enhance performance (except maybe in very light air). They also dropped the 135% genoa option for the water ballasted model--I can only speculate on why. Have you tried some comparisons with and without a reef in the main? On the C-25 TR, the normal reef makes the main about equivalent to a standard rig sail--I can only assume it would be similar on the C-250 TR. And what headsail size do you have? If a 135, that just might be a little too much sail on a tall rig, although its center of effort is lower than that of the main so that should be less of an issue.

US Sailing's National PHRF list doesn't include the CM-26 (only the CM-21 and 23). From sailboatdata.com, The Clipper Marine 26 is only about 60% of the displacement of a C-250 WK, a slightly shorter LWL, less ballast but on a deeper swing keel, and about the same sail area as a C-250 standard rig. The more slender Clipper hull (particularly aft) looks to me to be designed for heeling more. All of that suggests to me that performance differences could vary a lot based on conditions. But it might be that you felt more acceleration on the Clipper, even if it couldn't reach the same speed as the Cat.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 07/14/2015 16:04:23

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3312 Posts

Response Posted - 07/15/2015 : 09:58:50

A well sailed C25 will run rings around any well sailed C250. Our PHRF lists a TR C25 at 223, a SR C25 at 228 and a C250 at 231.

Derek Crawford
Chief Measurer C25-250 2008
Previous owner of "This Side UP"
1981 C-25 TR/FK #2262 Used to have an '89 C22 #9483, "Downsized"
San Antonio, Texas

Chief RA
Chief Technical Advisor

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USA
191 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2015 : 01:57:02

I am aware that a water ballast is not a good comparison to a wing keel hull. I would also think a tall mast would increase speed with a good skipper. Mine has a 135% furling genoa that clears lifelines. What is the PHRF on a tall rig, wing 250? I tried to find it but could not.
Its my understanding that the reason they stopped production of the tall mast was due to its tenderness and it scared many new crew. I do think extensive sailing experience is needed to Skipper it well. I have much experience and still will take more time for me to master her. Chief

COMPASS ROSE C250WK
Tall Mast, Wing keel
PORT CHIEF, Bodega Bay Ca.
IE,EE,FCC lic #1890

Edited by - Chief RA on 07/16/2015 06:02:56

Chief RA
Chief Technical Advisor

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USA
191 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2015 : 06:21:54

Derek: I didn't see mine listed in your post. I do not have a standard mast and I have a wing keel. I finally noticed that Dave provided the PHRF listing and do not see my boat. Chief

COMPASS ROSE C250WK
Tall Mast, Wing keel
PORT CHIEF, Bodega Bay Ca.
IE,EE,FCC lic #1890

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3312 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2015 : 08:34:04

Jim,
The Handbook lists a C250, a C250CB and a C250WK. Looking at the numbers I sense that the C250 (no suffix) is the TM as it lists lower than the others. I would imagine that, dropping the highest and lowest numbers and averaging the rest, it would rate around 219.
I crewed on a friend's C250WK a few years back and frankly I was terrified. We came out of the marina in a 10 - 12k wind, pulled out a 135 and darn near put a spreader in the water! I had to teach Steve (the owner) how to do controlled roundups all the way to the weather mark (even after we had reefed the jib). All the C250's seem to be exceptionally tender (and I apologize if I offend any owners - it's just been my experience). I know that Arlyn loves his and sails it on the Great Lakes - but I have no idea how he does it.

Derek Crawford
Chief Measurer C25-250 2008
Previous owner of "This Side UP"
1981 C-25 TR/FK #2262 Used to have an '89 C22 #9483, "Downsized"
San Antonio, Texas

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9014 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2015 : 09:13:03

quote:
Originally posted by Chief RA

...I finally noticed that Dave provided the PHRF listing and do not see my boat.

Probably because Catalina made so few C-250 TRs. (The Clipper Marine 26 isn't there either.) That list is a compilation of ratings from local organizations around the country (highs, lows and averages), so what's on it is probably dependent on what was being raced enough to be formally (not provisionally) rated by some US Sailing fleet organizations.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Chief RA
Chief Technical Advisor

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USA
191 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2015 : 09:25:13

Derek: She doesn't bother me or my wife much but am aware I need more time with her. The seas were so bad at Bodega last year that we didn't get out much and it was our first season with her.
What may not be known about the CM26 is they could plane. I could reduce her wetted surface and she would get faster. Never got her all the way up but saw my bow wake right under me while steering her! She sailed in 50 mph winds! Time will tell on the C250. Thanks, Chief

COMPASS ROSE C250WK
Tall Mast, Wing keel
PORT CHIEF, Bodega Bay Ca.
IE,EE,FCC lic #1890

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9014 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2015 : 09:29:59

quote:
Originally posted by Derek Crawford

...and frankly I was terrified. We came out of the marina in a 10 - 12k wind, pulled out a 135 and darn near put a spreader in the water!...

I was on a friends Juneau--maybe 38'--with a big genny and was startled by the amount of heel in only 10-12 knots of wind... Then I noticed that his genoa block was just barely aft of the clew when sheeted in pretty tightly, so the leech was hard but the sail was bagged way out--sorta like beating to windward with a chute! We moved it back, and voila!!

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Chief RA
Chief Technical Advisor

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USA
191 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2015 : 10:03:01

There are many people who can steer a sailboat but few who can really sail one! It takes a lot of practice with each boat and I need more time on this boat sailing her. Thanks guys! Chief

COMPASS ROSE C250WK
Tall Mast, Wing keel
PORT CHIEF, Bodega Bay Ca.
IE,EE,FCC lic #1890

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3993 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2015 : 16:42:22

I know a few guys who never move the jenny cars...ever. I think they're corroded to the tracks.

Scott-"IMPULSE"87'C25/SR/WK/Din.#5688
Sailing out of Glen Cove,L.I Sound

Chief RA
Chief Technical Advisor

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USA
191 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2015 : 17:57:12

Now Scott if you want a great discussion about sailing prowess just ask that guy who knows a boom vang is just an unneeded accessory and waste of money! The next post will be asking what a thwartsships traveller is! I love it! Later, Chief

COMPASS ROSE C250WK
Tall Mast, Wing keel
PORT CHIEF, Bodega Bay Ca.
IE,EE,FCC lic #1890

Russ.Johnson
Commodore

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USA
833 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2015 : 18:14:25

Hey Chief,

Sorry I missed your post, so you might already have the answers you were looking for.
I have a C250 water-ballast (2004) so I can give you some additional details.

First, the PHRF rating is determined by the local sailing authority granted by U.S. Sailing (www.ussailing.org).
In northern California, that would be the "Yacht Racing Association of San Francisco Bay" (www.yra.org).
They assign a PHRF rating based on applications submitted by YRA members. They also review PHRF ratings (on appeal) after the local sailing season to see if they need to be changed. The goal is to make local sailing more competitive.
U.S Sailing then takes the PHRF ratings from the local groups and compiles the (high/low/avg) mentioned earlier.
Now you probably already know that, but there are questions from time-to-time how this process works.

In the case of C250WK-Tall, no one has submitted an application to the YRA for a rating.

Also, the PHRF rating does not take into consideration your sail plan.
The default rating "assumes" a 155-jib. You can get an exception for a 110 or 135-jib by applying for an "as sailed" rating. This exception rating must be given to the race committee for each regatta.

To answer a few other comments above.
In 1995, the C250 only had the water-ballast model, so if you see a PHRF rating with no suffix, it was for a WB because that is all there were.

The Tall-Rig was only available for a Wing-Keel (WK) and they were only made for a few years. From what I remember, around hull 300-400 range.

Other history:
In 1995, the C250WB had the shrouds attached to chain plates at the hull/deck joint (rub rail). The standard 110-jib sheets are run inside the shrouds for pointing/trimming. A friend of mine has this boat and he said you can't use a bigger jib because you can't trim with the sheets on the outside and the jib hits the spreaders when the sheet are on the inside.

When the Wing-Keel (C250WK) was introduced, the shrouds/chain plates were moved to the cabin top in-line with the jib tracks. The jib tracks were also lengthened. This allowed for either the 110-jib or 135-jib to be sold.

Later water-ballast models (C250WB) used the same shrouds/chain plates as the wing-keel.
I have a C250WB (2004) which has the cabin-top shrouds.

Another sailing factor is the rudder.
The original rudder (1st-generation) was recalled and replaced by the (2nd-generation).
I heard this from Arlyn Stewart. See related post (The Catalina 250 rudder story)
http://catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=912

The 3rd-generation rudder was a fixed rudder, but since the Water-Ballast model had a shallower draft (also lower on the trailer) that rudder was shorter.
The Water-Ballast rudder is about 5-feet overall, with the Wing-Keel rudder about 6-feet overall.

Given all these configurations, it can be difficult to compare the C250 sailing performance even against other C250 models.

I know this is a lot of information and I'm just rambling on now.
I hope this helps someone.
Thanks, Russ

Russ Johnson
2005 C250WB Hull 793

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9014 Posts

Response Posted - 07/16/2015 : 20:47:44

I think all of Russ's history suggests that Catalina was evolving the C-250 to meet the marketj for a trailerable cruising boat, not to support class racing as they did with the C-22, for example. The market was elusive, as indicated by the production numbers compared to the C-25 in the early '80s (which faltered dramatically toward 1990), and the eventual withdrawal altogether.

BTW, I always suspected the C-250 would plane on a reach more readily than the C-25 based on the 250's hull form and displacement--especially the tall rig. Chief: I'm betting you'll get there--just keep the sheets eased a little to keep her on her feet.

Dave Bristle
Association "Port Captain" for Mystic/Stonington CT
PO of 1985 C-25 SR/FK #5032 Passage, USCG "sixpack" (expired),
Now on Eastern 27 $+!nkp*+ Sarge

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 07/16/2015 20:59:16

Chief RA
Chief Technical Advisor

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USA
191 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2015 : 04:39:44

Russ, Dave: I really enjoyed the history and comments about these boats. You guys really know the boats and when I need answers and interchange this forum is great!
One of the first things I did was drop the 155 and set the 135. No wonder so many people regard her as tender, it just is hell to handle around those shrouds, lifelines and dragging the deck! I do like the 135 though. I am still playing with the rudder. I drilled and doweled her last year but may make dowel more readily removable this year. I want it up in port. my best, Chief

COMPASS ROSE C250WK
Tall Mast, Wing keel
PORT CHIEF, Bodega Bay Ca.
IE,EE,FCC lic #1890

Edited by - Chief RA on 07/17/2015 05:02:47

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