Association Forum - speaking of Genoa Cars

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

speaking of Genoa Cars

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

Page: of 3

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

Member Avatar

USA
3754 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/04/2014 : 16:57:49

Has anyone used CD's budget priced pin stop genoa cars (40-60 bucks)? They don't have poly sliding surfaces, but my real concern is that they are less than half the price of any named brand. Doubling the price seems pretty high for poly liners, but pretty cheap compared to a loaded genoa car exploding.

Edited by - Dave5041 on 09/04/2014 17:25:48

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 09/04/2014 : 18:10:48

Haven't used the cars from CD but I would explore the ones from Garhauer - if nothing more than for comparison sakes.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 09/04/2014 : 18:46:53

I purchased a set of Garhauer track cars probably more than a dozen years ago and they still work, and look, like new.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2014 : 05:33:08

you can't go wrong with the Garhauer track cars/blocks. No plastic sides or sheaves to wear out or crack.
The track car/blocks on the CD website that are priced in the $45-$46 range are made by Garhauer, items D1159 and D1114, for example.

Edited by - dmpilc on 09/05/2014 05:47:56

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2014 : 12:28:20

I used the D1112 cars on my Catalina 25 when I had it. I was sailing on that boat last week and the cars are still in use and working well.

Garhauer stuff is generally well made and inexpensive but heavy. I just bought their adjustable genoa lead car system for my current boat (but haven't received and installed it yet).

Edited by - on

jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1484 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2014 : 20:11:20

I've had them for about 7 years. No troubles, but they really don't slide forward when under load. Moving aft, under moderate load is OK. They are strong and of good value. When I need to make adjustments while underway, I pinch up to ease the strain on the sheet, make the adjustment and then ease back off the wind. We don't race, so it's not really an issue for us...

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 09/06/2014 : 08:56:20

Jerry: Is that mini review for the ez-glide adjustable ones, or the pin adjustable ones? It sounds like the former, but I wanted to clarify.

That review is not as strong as the one on Practical Sailor, but they tested the 1-1/4" track version, not the 1" track version (my Pearson and the Catalina 25 use 1" track). I was hoping that the system would work better than what you describe under load, but also had some skepticism. Does your car slide on delrin or on ball bearings?

Harken's system is very compelling (their travelers work very well under load), but I wasn't ready to switch from T-Track to traveler track since I use the forward end of my T-track for other accessories. It is also about twice as expensive.

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

2402 Posts

Response Posted - 09/08/2014 : 09:19:44

I have bought multiple cars from CD and they are Garhauer crap. The black knob come apart from the pin then the pim will not reach the holes in the track. The cars are cheap thin metal that bends if stepped on. Garhauer genoa cars are the worst product Garhauer makes. The problem is most things are 1" 1/4 now days so 1" cars are very hard to find. At least they do not use those stupid plastic inserts for slide edges.

Edited by - on

jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1484 Posts

Response Posted - 09/09/2014 : 17:42:54

This is the model we have. As said, we climb/step on it all the time:

Edited by - jerlim on 09/09/2014 17:49:32

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

2402 Posts

Response Posted - 09/09/2014 : 19:54:42

The silver center of the black knob is essentially a rivet that has been hammered by a press to make that rolled edge. The problem with the design is it depends on friction to keep the pin and black knob together. On my cars bought a year apart the pin popped up and would not go back down. The pin is then held up out of the track holes by the black knob which fits the pin so tightly the pin cannot drop back down into the hole in the track. The design is junk. The cheeks of the block are thin and bend easily, also the base is not cast like the photo, they are formed steel now. Please tell me where there is a 1" car from another manufacturer and I will buy two to replace my Garhauers.

Edited by - pastmember on 09/09/2014 20:00:13

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 09/09/2014 : 21:24:49

Schaefer and Ronstan both make them:

Ronstan:
http://www.fisheriessupply.com/ronstan-series-25-jib-lead-cars

Schaefer:
http://www.fisheriessupply.com/schaefer-marine-twin-sheet-lead-blocks
http://www.fisheriessupply.com/schaefer-marine-spring-loaded-blocks-on-slides
http://www.fisheriessupply.com/schaefer-marine-twin-sheet-lead-blocks

The Garhauer cars that I bought for my Catalina 25 two years ago were identical to the ones in that photo above. They are still in use.

Edited by - awetmore on 09/09/2014 21:26:42

britinusa
Web Editor

Members Avatar

USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2014 : 03:16:51

Odd how designers think.

To move the car the pin has to be pulled upward. But in real life, we have to reach forward to do that.

If the pin were on a pivot that would enable a lanyard to pull back and the pin up that would be a better solution. IMHO.

Paul

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2014 : 06:07:27

quote:
Originally posted by britinusa

...To move the car the pin has to be pulled upward. But in real life, we have to reach forward to do that. If the pin were on a pivot that would enable a lanyard to pull back and the pin up that would be a better solution.

So you pull the lanyard and the pin pops up... Then how do you move the car without reaching forward?

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

Members Avatar

USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2014 : 08:17:32

How do you move the car forwards without reaching forward ???

But moving it aft would be easy.

I have seen some cars that have an option to attach a line at each end that allows the car to be moved either direction.

As the sail would be flattened by moving the car aft, an action as the wind pipes up, not having to go forward would be a good thing.

Paul

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2014 : 09:16:34

If you are using an adjustable track car system, it may not have a pin in which to pull.

Edited by - on

shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

Members Avatar

USA
1032 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2014 : 09:52:07

Yeah if you'd like to needlessly complicate things... the Harken version of above (which seems cleaner)...

The basic low lead Harken part number is g276S

The price from Defender is $197, way more than the $55 for the Garhauer equivalent... I'm not convinced there is enough quality difference to justify that cost differential, but as they say, "to each their own."
http://tinyurl.com/oaqz7e7

Edited by - shnool on 09/10/2014 09:57:13

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2014 : 10:55:25

The Harken cars being sold today run on traveler track, not T-track. You need to replace your track with their track if you buy their cars. The Harken traveler cars move extremely well under load, and not using T-track is a big part of that.

The cars that I linked from Ronstan and Schaefer will run on T-track.

The Harken adjustable system shown in shnool's photo works about the same way as the one in the Garhauer photo, it just shows it installed instead of both parts on one short section of track. There is a 3:1 or 4:1 tackle to pull the car forward that is lead back to a cam cleat. At the back of the car there is a 2:1 bungie tackle that pulls the car backwards. Both boats that I race on (a J/109 and a Catalina 36 MK2) use variations of this system.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2014 : 17:26:41

quote:
Originally posted by britinusa

As the sail would be flattened by moving the car aft, an action as the wind pipes up, not having to go forward would be a good thing.

Agreed, but a lanyard on a pivoting pin might not be the way unless it's the windward (inactive) car. Thus the multi-part systems where the adjusting lines hold the cars in place, as on a traveler.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 09/13/2014 : 07:20:53

Frank, I'm surprised you have had trouble with your Garhauer jib cars. I've got what looks like the D1159 model for 1" tracks on my C-22 and have not had any problems with them. Maybe they are an older, stronger version.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 09/13/2014 : 12:57:51

Frank, did you tell Garhauer about your experience and ask them to replace the genoa cars? When I encountered a problem with their equipment that was really my own fault, they fixed it for me at no charge, and returned it to me, at their expense. It sounds like they changed their genoa car design and it might have been defective. I'll bet they would like to have an opportunity to make it right for you.

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

2402 Posts

Response Posted - 09/13/2014 : 17:42:27

I should contact Garhauer, thanks for the push.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2014 : 06:51:19

One method of dealing with an ailing car system is to convert to twings.

On my early model 250, the tracks were too short so to simulate longer tracks, I converted to twings.

A twing is fairly simple. It is a block secured to a line and the line is passed through the car block and cleated at cabin bulkhead (I do so with swivel cam cleats). The foresail sheet of course passes through the twing block rather than the car block.

In use, the car is positioned fully forward and left there and the twing is eased which allows it to rise above the deck and adjust the sheet angle. They are very easy to adjust under load from the cockpit and are far simpler and cheaper than an adjustable car system.

My first concern when considering them was that they would foul but that hasn't been an issue.

The bugaroo is that they will only work if there is a lead block ahead of the winch, which on my boat wasn't an issue because I'd installed coaming winches and they included a lead blocks on stanchion bases. A lead block is of course necessary for fair entry to the winch.

I really like twings but as noted, they can't be rigged on all boats.

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 09/14/2014 07:00:54

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2014 : 10:14:07

Arlyn: I'm curious... I've seen a somewhat different configuration of twings used to move the sheeting angle inward or outward. Your configuration, using the genoa car, raises and lowers the sheeting angle, simulating moving a car forward or aft... But does raising (easing) it to flatten the headsail not also cause the sheeting angle to move outward, reducing the headsail's effectiveness in pointing?

Also, when you tack, do you adjust the new windward ("lazy") twing to get it to lie where you want, or can you leave it as-is?

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/14/2014 10:19:21

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2014 : 11:45:14

quote:
Originally posted by Stinkpotter

Arlyn: I'm curious... I've seen a somewhat different configuration of twings used to move the sheeting angle inward or outward. Your configuration, using the genoa car, raises and lowers the sheeting angle, simulating moving a car forward or aft... But does raising (easing) it to flatten the headsail not also cause the sheeting angle to move outward, reducing the headsail's effectiveness in pointing?

Also, when you tack, do you adjust the new windward ("lazy") twing to get it to lie where you want, or can you leave it as-is?

Dave, you are correct that the athwardship angle changes slightly but not much for a hardened condition where the car would normally be far forward, so the twing block is pulled down fairly close to the normal track car position.

I let the lazy fall to the deck with no change of adjustment. As pointed out, at first I thought this might yield some fouling... but none has been experienced.

Yes, a twing using a snatch block is often used for athwardship trim, maybe my use ought to be called a twang.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2014 : 14:04:16

quote:
Originally posted by Arlyn Stewart

Dave, you are correct that the athwardship angle changes slightly but not much for a hardened condition where the car would normally be far forward, so the twing block is pulled down fairly close to the normal track car position...

i get that part, but the car forward (or "twang" pulled down) would be for light air. I was wondering about heavier air where you want to pull the clew back, so would ease the twang and harden the sheet, if I understand the rig. That can also be when you want to point as high as possible...

Edited by - on

islander
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3992 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2014 : 15:49:00

quote:
The bugaroo is that they will only work if there is a lead block ahead of the winch,

Wouldn't another car work slid back on the track placed in front of the winch say where you would normally place it for strong winds. Then when the wind picks up you just ease your twang and the second car takes over.

Edited by - islander on 09/14/2014 15:54:19

Page: of 3

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.