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Sustained 15-20 gusting to 35

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cshaw
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Response Posted - 04/02/2014 : 19:32:58

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redeye
 I was under the impression, when you were in heavy wind, that you pulled the traveler to windward, to allow the boom the ability to rise and lower with gusts, much as it would if you let the mainsheet out. From "How to Trim Sails", by Peter Schweer.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
That isn't consistent with the consensus of all the authorities I have read, or with my own experience. I just now picked up this blurb from the Ullman Sails website: "As the boat begins to be overpowered, the traveler should be eased down to reduce weather helm and keep the boat at less than 25 degrees of heel."

You might want to do that in lighter air, to induce twist in the mainsail. If you look at the photo of "Rowdy," she appears to be in lighter winds, with fairly flattish seas. Her boom is somewhat eased and the boom is being allowed to rise a bit, which induces twist in the upper part of the sail. The reason for doing that is because the wind direction at the top of the mast in light air is slightly different from it's direction in stronger winds, so, you induce twist so that the sail is at it's most efficient angle of attack, both at the top of the sail, as well as lower down.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I always enjoy reading threads on this topic, since there always seems to be two aspects that end up getting rolled into one when maybe they shouldn't be?

One is what do you do when you do get over powered. I think most of us are in agreement that easing the traveler is the right approach for the reasons stated rather than easing the main sheet. But the other aspect where is the traveler BEFORE you ease it?

I have found if I can keep the boom as close to centerline as possible, I point much better, but the price you pay is you heel more with the leech pulled tight if the wind is too high. So, I pull my traveler to weather, ease off the vang so the boom can rise (but have it cleated with a tiny bit of slack for protection from a chinese gybe), and then trim the mainsheet to allow the boom to be close to centerline, but to rise to dump air from the top of the main, which dramatically reduces the steady state angle of heel for me. This is a "steady state" trim position, that I then pinch up in the gusts, and then follow with easing the traveler if pinching was either not enough or I start losing speed too much.

If the wind allows it, I keep the traveler nearer the centerline to allow using the upper part of the sail (i.e. tightening the leech), while still keeping the boom near centerline, and easing the traveler in the puffs if I cannnot pinch my way up though them (I try sailing a constant angle of heel in the puffs by pinching (sometimes severly, but watching the boat speed since you can really slow down if you de-power via pinching up in the luffs too much rather than keeping her bow down and easing the traveler).

All of this assumes you have tightened the outhaul to flatten the main, and tightened the downhaul (or halyard, or cunningham) to pull the draft forward, or tucked in a reef if you are still way over powered. And flattened the jib with moving the sheet leads aft (which also opens up the top of the sail) and added halyard tension and backstay tension to keep the draft forward.

I agree with Steve on the traveler to weather in light airs also, for the same reasons, and I watch the leech telltales closely to not allow the main to be stalled.

The thoughts shared on balanced rudder vs non-balanced were also good. I do not like to fight a strong weather helm either, so with my non-balanced rudder I am quite motivated to trim the sails to keep the helm balanced. I have seen a lot of boats with balanced rudders being sailed with a lot of rudder deflection when close hauled(since other than the tiller being up against you it was not fatiguing to do so) rather than having the helm balanced. A balanced helm is faster and has less tiller deflection/pressure. Yes, you can still trim for a balanced helm with a balanced rudder, but I guess I have gotten used to relying on the tiller pressure feedback to keep her well balanced. I can feel, from just the slight tiller pressure I like to carry, whether I have the boat in the groove or not, which is especially nice at night.

However, I do have to admit that a balanced rudder would sometimes be nice broad reaching, especially with a quartering sea.

Just my thoughts, but it has seemed to work quite well for me for many years..

Cheers!

Chuck

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9013 Posts

Response Posted - 04/02/2014 : 21:57:49

Chuck: FWIW, a very experienced racer (who owned a custom Petersen 40-something sled) told me a moderate amount of weather helm is faster than a neutral helm. Something to do with the rudder slightly shifting the angle of attack of the keel, improving its lift. I actually think I understand, but got into a big argument about it here several years ago. There are too many experts out there for me!

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cshaw
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Response Posted - 04/03/2014 : 14:31:54

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 Chuck: FWIW, a very experienced racer (who owned a custom Petersen 40-something sled) told me a moderate amount of weather helm is faster than a neutral helm. Something to do with the rudder slightly shifting the angle of attack of the keel, improving its lift. I actually think I understand, but got into a big argument about it here several years ago. There are too many experts out there for me!

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hi Dave!

I agree totally. I am not sure what the dynamics actually are that makes it so (I have heard a lot of different notions)

Slight pressure on the tiller is quite different however than a good sized deflection.... Most of the time, when I have her balanced "correctly" (at least for the way I like her to sail), the tiller is no more than an inch off centerline, and I can hold the tiller with two fingers. If I let go, she will round up into the wind, but not violently.

Besides being faster (again, IMHO) I think it is also safer to carry that small amount of weather helm in case you drop the tiller or fall overboard, etc.

Chuck

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 04/03/2014 : 18:19:56

Absolutely Chuck--I hate when my boat sails away from me!

And there's a point at which the rudder is creating drag that exceeds the benefits of weather helm (and makes sailing less fun). I'll suggest you know it when you hear it, and/or when your arm is starting to work. (There's a downside to the balanced rudder.

). The more the heel, the more the rudder deflection to prevent rounding up, and the more the drag.

Edited by - on

redeye
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Response Posted - 04/04/2014 : 10:47:17

<< Spartan, is here in Mystic fairly regularly. >>

If you ever get to get some shots of Spartan...

Please share!

What a boat...

Edited by - on

DavidBuoy
Admiral

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Response Posted - 04/07/2014 : 10:06:43

I was just out Saturday in the bay (Chesapeake) with sustained 25 knots and 35 knot gusts for the first outing of the season in DB. Quite a shakedown run. The new balanced rudder felt great! Only thing to break was one sail track clip and lost the stopper when taking the main down because the reef I had in it. I was surprised that with such a nice day of weather that more people were not out there. Guess they were scared! lol

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DavidBuoy
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Response Posted - 04/07/2014 : 17:34:36

Just found out today while pullin the boat out that i've been sailing in those conditions with the rudder up! haha. Winch has been broken and I believed it to be part up/part down but not this far up!! Good thing I avoided disaster and pulled it to do the bottom, winch, cable, etc..! Should point much better with it down lol. Im suprised the bottom isnt worse off, not having the bottom done in over 3 year sittin in the Chesapeake. I just picked it up at the end of last season and have been going through everything on the boat so don't blame me for the mistreatment! Doin my graphics on the boat this week along with the denaming so forgive the old title.

Edited by - DavidBuoy on 04/07/2014 17:36:37

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 04/07/2014 : 20:13:08

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by DavidBuoy
 Just found out today while pullin the boat out that i've been sailing in those conditions with the rudder up! haha.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">You mean the keel. That will make it feel more tender, but it's still 1500 lbs down low. Glad you kept the soft side up!

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 04/07/2014 20:14:13

islander
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Response Posted - 04/08/2014 : 04:41:31

Good looking boat, I'm not sure but is it OK to have just jack stands supporting the boat and nothing supporting the keel?

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dlucier
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Response Posted - 04/08/2014 : 06:48:12

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by islander
 Good looking boat, I'm not sure but is it OK to have just jack stands supporting the boat and nothing supporting the keel?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

It appears to be resting on two beefy sawhorses.

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redeye
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Response Posted - 04/08/2014 : 06:55:51

Good catch Scott.. that doesn't look right at all.

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Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 04/08/2014 : 07:39:04

The six jackstands and two sawhorses appear to support the hull adequately. When the boat is floating, the keel isn't supported by anything other than the pin and cable mechanism. If it doesn't hurt the boat for the keel to be unsupported when in the water, I don't see any reason why it should hurt it to be unsupported when out of the water. The hull is engineered to take the load. I think it's a good practice to chock the keel, but I wouldn't have any hesitancy to crank up the keel to paint it. In any case, I wouldn't slack the cable completely. In a really hard blow, the weight of the keel will help prevent the boat from being blown off the jackstands. I lowered the keel support many times on my fin keel boat to paint the keel, and, when a boat is in a travelift, sometimes overnight, the keel is unsupported.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 04/08/2014 07:43:51

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 04/08/2014 : 07:57:41

I'd say it's only really important to support the swing keel when traveling on a trailer, where the jarring motions could unduly stress the system. It weights about 15% more on land than under water, but...

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Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 04/08/2014 : 08:07:54

If it was my boat, I'd put a piece of 2 X something under it, and lower the keel just enough to take up some of the weight.

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islander
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Response Posted - 04/08/2014 : 08:48:17

Or a car jack. the weight of a boat that is in the water is supported over the entire wetted area of the hull not just 6 jack stands with 1ft square pads, So this boats entire weight is now being supported by 6 square feet plus the 2"x4" that the saw horses are touching the hull.I'm not worried about the keel or the pin, Like you said it is engineered to support the weight but I'd be inclined to put a car jack under the keel to take some of the weight off of the jack stands when I wasn't working on the lifting mechanism.

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DavidBuoy
Admiral

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Response Posted - 04/08/2014 : 09:43:50

Aw it'll be fine. Its having all the lifting hardware replaced today or tomorrow and will be able to lower it then. Besides, its a reputable yard here in town and i trust their techniques. Im probably the cheapest boat in there so i'll put my faith in them. Another picture for scrutiny ;)

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Captain Max
1st Mate

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87 Posts

Response Posted - 04/10/2014 : 16:24:12

Good thread, on the balanced rudder, how do you tell what you have? I have an 84 cat 25.

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 04/10/2014 : 16:58:51

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Captain Max
 Good thread, on the balanced rudder, how do you tell what you have? I have an 84 cat 25.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">The original on that vintage was unbalanced. The balanced rudder Catalina started using in about '87 (?) has a "step" that goes under the skeg, so part of the rudder's surface is forward of the pivot line defined by the pintles. That surface counters some of the force you feel when turning or counteracting weather helm.

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DavidBuoy
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Response Posted - 04/10/2014 : 19:17:10

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Captain Max
 Good thread, on the balanced rudder, how do you tell what you have? I have an 84 cat 25.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">The original on that vintage was unbalanced. The balanced rudder Catalina started using in about '87 (?) has a "step" that goes under the skeg, so part of the rudder's surface is forward of the pivot line defined by the pintles. That surface counters some of the force you feel when turning or counteracting weather helm.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Balanced on the left, unbalanced on the right.

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Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 04/10/2014 : 21:21:06

Many owners like the balanced rudder very much, because it reduces weather helm, but some of us, myself included, found that you can eliminate heavy weather helm with the older style, unbalanced rudder by tuning the rig, and, when the rig is well tuned, the helm is as light as it is with the balanced rudder. Thus, if you are fortunate enough to have an unbalanced rudder that is still in good, serviceable condition, IMO there really is no compelling reason to spend a few hundred dollars to buy a new balanced rudder. You can achieve the same benefits at no cost by careful tuning of the rig.

Moreover, the balanced rudder doesn't really reduce weather helm. It masks it. Weather helm is still present, but you don't feel it through tiller pressure. The way that it masks it is by using a little pressure on the opposite side of the rudder to counteract the pressure that you feel through the tiller. Using that pressure to reduce tiller pressure creates a small amount of drag, which represents energy. In other words, it uses energy that would otherwise be used to drive the boat through the water. IMO, the amount of drag that it creates is very miniscule, and is quite possibly only significant in the mind of a die hard racer who is looking for every fraction of a fraction of a knot of boat speed.

Thus, the primary benefit of a balanced rudder is that it allows you to enjoy a light helm, even if your rig is not well tuned. If you want to enjoy a light helm with a non-balanced rudder, you must learn how to tune your rig, but that's something that would be good for a sailor to learn anyway, and it really isn't complicated or difficult to learn.

In addition to good rig tuning, heavy weather helm can also be greatly reduced by good sail trimming practices. If you reef the sails appropriately in relation to the wind strength, you will reduce excessive heeling, and that will, in turn, reduce weather helm, and your boat speed and VMG will improve.

My point is, don't feel that you can't enjoy a great sailing boat unless you spend alot of money for a new rudder. A C25 with the original rudder will sail at least as well as one with the balanced rudder, if you use the techniques available to you to reduce tiller pressure.

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redeye
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Response Posted - 04/11/2014 : 04:08:29

... and you have probably got some significant forces added to the lower pintle with the "balanced" rudder. I think I'd rather go with the balanced boat.

Not saying anything is wrong with the new rudder, just another way to do tings with good and bad aspects.

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dlucier
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Response Posted - 04/11/2014 : 05:40:21

Weatherhelm is not so much the pressure one feels on the tiller (those with wheels may feel little to nothing) but how many degrees off center one must position the rudder to counteract the boats tendency to turn to weather in order to maintain a straight line course. Anecdotal evidence from past forum posts suggests that in relatively identical conditions, the balanced rudder significantly reduces the amount one must position the rudder off center in order to maintain a straight line course when going to weather.

Edited by - dlucier on 04/11/2014 05:41:16

cshaw
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Response Posted - 04/11/2014 : 06:05:25

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redeye
 ... and you have probably got some significant forces added to the lower pintle with the "balanced" rudder. I think I'd rather go with the balanced boat.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Not sure the forces on the lower pintle would be changed (assuming no rig or sail trim differences)? A balanced rudder simply has more area forward of the axis of rotation, to "balance" those loads on the rudder a bit more that you feel in the tiller. I don't think the overall side loads on the rudder itself are significantly changed, just some of those side loads are now forward of the axis of rotation.

I agree totally no matter what type rudder you have, the best approach is to balance the forces thru rig and sail trim (leaving a slight amount of weather helm when close hauled), and the boat will be faster to boot!

Chuck

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 04/11/2014 : 06:52:38

I did not find that the fiberglass balanced rudder noticeably reduced the deflection (tiller degrees to windward) I needed to compensate for weather helm compared to the original rudder. I did find, of course, that the pull on the tiller was reduced. The physics of that is simple: the original only had water pressing on the blade aft of the pivot line, while the balanced rudder had about 15% of the push forward of the pivot. The lateral force on the pintle should be the same, based on the total surface and pressure against one side of the blade, just as a teeter-totter pivot point carries the sum of the weight of the two occupants that are balancing each other.)

What was less simple to understand (or at least beyond my training) was the reduction in helm flutter I felt compared to the original in some circumstances, apparently from the foil shape. The original rudder had "sharp" edges fore and aft, and symetric tapers toward both edges. Sounds efficient, but nooooo... The balanced rudder has a blunt, rounded edge forward and a long taper to a sharp edge aft, supposedly based on a NACA hydrofoil design (not unlike the airfoil design of an airplane wing). It supposedly reduces turbulence, which should reduce drag and improve "lift" (essentially efficiency) slightly, for maybe a .03 knot increase.

Maybe it also slightly reduces deflection against weather helm.......

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 04/11/2014 07:02:14

redeye
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Response Posted - 04/11/2014 : 07:22:23

<< Not sure the forces on the lower pintle would be changed >>

Hmmm.. well if I hafta pull like hell with one rudder... and another goes over easy, the forces are gonna go somewhere. I suspect they end up on that pintle as the blade more easily positions itself perpendicular to the rushing water. The ease of use allows us to create greater force on that point. If the area in front and behind was "balanced" it could turn perpendicular, and probably snap right off.

Edited by - redeye on 04/11/2014 07:34:57

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