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 Lifting a C250 WB off the trailer at home
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britinusa
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Initially Posted - 12/13/2012 :  04:06:01  Show Profile  Visit britinusa's Homepage

Lifting a C250 WB off the trailer at home
Caption:Looking for a way to get the boat off the trailer in order to do some work on the keel lifting system. Rather than build a series of blocks I'm looking at ways to support the boat on straps. 1st idea is to use 20,000lb 2" tow strap (readily available) supported on 4 legs made of 4x4 timber reinforced with 5/8" plywood. Each leg would have a 4' length of 4x4 along the lower edge so that the ply does not dig into the ground. An 8' 4x4 along the vertical side of the ply. The ply would be half an 8' x 4' panel cut diagonally. The straps would be secured with a piece of ply screwed through the strap and into the vertical 4x4. To provide fore-n-aft stability, 1" straps would run from eyes near the top of the vertical 4x4 to the pulpit and catbird seat supports. The boat only has to raise 10" in order to remove the trailer.

Thoughts?

Paul

Joint Decision.
C250WB 2005 Sail # 841.

Launched June 5th. 2005
Slipped alongside our house (on the trailer)



Updated August 2014

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David Gonsalves

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Response Posted - 12/13/2012 :  09:17:20  Show Profile
A few thoughts that popped into my head immediately:
2" wide straps seem small for the job, most lifting straps I've seen are more like 6"-8" wide.

How do you intend to attach the straps to the supports?

How do you intend to raise the boat off the trailer?

If you're not going to use the straps to raise the boat, how are you going to (safely) get the straps under the suspended load?

I haven't done any calculations, but 4x4's seem small for the job, but might be adequate for a WB since it's 1500 lbs lighter than a WK (roughly).

How are you going to keep the tops of the 4x4's from collapsing inward as the load comes on? Spreader bars would probably solve that as well as giving you more structural rigidity.

I've thought about doing something similar, but building a cradle out of scrap 2x4's laminated in both directions to create at least a 6" wide cradle for each end and then lift the cradles with a bottle jack and support with stacked ricks of 2x4 or 4x4. That way you only need to move the boat a couple of inches at a time and it's always supported on one end as you jack the other end up & add blocks. You could build a similar cradle using your method, but you'd have to raise the boat that much higher to clear the cradle itself, so it's a game of numbers.

David Gonsalves - Mainsheet C250 Technical Editor (catalina250tech at catalina-capri-25s.org)
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SEAN
Admiral

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Response Posted - 12/14/2012 :  06:19:01  Show Profile
I lift my boat every year , two sail boat stands in the back .
then blocks with a double beam scribed to the boat for the front .

I use 4 4-ton pump jacks to lift it .
it goes pretty smooth but i dont pull the traler away .
ill take the pads off if i need more room ..


also I have lifted the boat off the trailer ,
or i have lifted the boat and trailer blocked the boat then lowered the trailer ,
both ways have worked for me

safty tip, i block it every inch or 2 it is raised so if anything slips it wont have
far to fall


Edited by - SEAN on 12/14/2012 06:27:04
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delliottg
Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 12/14/2012 :  07:21:22  Show Profile  Visit delliottg's Homepage  Click to see delliottg's MSN Messenger address
Sean, do you have any photos of your set up? I'd be interested to see them.

David
C-250 Mainsheet Editor


Sirius Lepak
1997 C-250 WK TR #271 --Seattle area Port Captain --
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shnool
Mainsheet Capri-25 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 12/14/2012 :  07:35:30  Show Profile  Visit shnool's Homepage  Send shnool an AOL message  Send shnool a Yahoo! Message
I agree, I've seen and helped lift large boats off trailers using jackstands. Used jackstands (minimum of 4) can likely be had around $200. Craigslist.

The way I'd do it is lower tongue, insert jackstands at the stern.
Raise tongue, insert jackstands at the bow.

other option is to jack the whole trailer up, insert jackstands around, lower trailer down, pull out, block keel.

The key is to rest more than 50% on the keel when you are done.

By the way, I think 4x4s are [marginally]fine (but ONLY for vertical use, not any lateral forces). 4x6s work too.. but my concern would be how do you make it "adjustable." If I were "making" jackstands, I'd look at temporary floor jacks... Bound to be an easy way to use them. Most have tilting heads/feet, and you could use a large block of wood bolted to both ends to make it work. Boy I think I just gave myself an idea!

http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-100041510/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&keyword=temporary+floor+jacks&storeId=10051#.UMs3zXeH98E

Ok so lets say you wanted to jack up your boat... you'd take a 2x8x16 footer, mount 2 of these "bolted" to that board, on the port and starboard sides of the boat , then block up the "rig" to the height you need. Put a piece of wood (big, say, 12"x12" to build a pad carpet it, for the tops of the jackstands) then crank away... It'd take 4 of these to build your own jackstands, but they'd have no problem lifting this much weight! Oh and I'd chain the heads of the jackstands together (duh), because they'd want to kick away from the boat (again position them at the right points of the boat, and the forces will be more down than out).

John Schramm, Anticipation a 1982 Capri 25 fin keel, hull 278, Sailing with the Paupack Sail Club, Lake Wallenpaupack, PA
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SEAN
Admiral

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Response Posted - 12/14/2012 :  18:27:54  Show Profile
No pictures till spring Dave !!

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britinusa
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Response Posted - 12/14/2012 :  20:19:10  Show Profile  Visit britinusa's Homepage
The goal is to pull the trailer out so that I can work on the keel lifting turning ball (going to replace it with the kit from CD.)

The biggest issue is lifting the boat at least 10" off the trailer so that as I pull the trailer out, the deepest part of the hull clears the aft end of the trailer bunks.

Jack stands look a great solution when lifting the boat onto them with a crane, but to rely upon them when messing with the trailer withdrawal is where I feel at risk.

Still designing

paul

Joint Decision.
C250WB 2005 Sail # 841.

Launched June 5th. 2005
Slipped alongside our house (on the trailer)



Updated August 2014
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SEAN
Admiral

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Response Posted - 12/15/2012 :  15:01:08  Show Profile
what i do ..with the boat stands is add a thin strip of plywood
to the top of the pad's 2 foot wide by how ever long to reach both sides .
I figure that helps displays the weight .

the problem i have found is its fine the first couple hours but by the next day ,
you might notice its maybe leaning a bit ,
if you didn't start with a good base ..
4x4 plywood on the ground helps ..

I used two 12 x12 and notch a place for the nose to sit .
I place it pretty far forward figuring the hull is stiffer there .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fpq37XHE-vw

but to make the gap wider you could use 12 x 16 maybe 3
should be wide enough to drive the trailer through .
I use cement block 6 per side for my WK
well 10 per side i like to lock the block together doubled up .
then you have to chain front to back both side so nothing slips ..

maybe just taking it to the yard
and paying for lift time might be cheaper :)
then again finding a way is half the fun !!

Or you could back the trailer with boat on to some planks of wood say 8" high
that way you only have to jack the boat and trailer up a couple inches ...
then remove planking and lower the trailer 10 inches .


Edited by - SEAN on 12/25/2012 06:47:29
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zeil
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Response Posted - 12/17/2012 :  18:22:31  Show Profile


Thought provoking ideas with lots questions and unknowns...

Not so simple to come-up with a safe, serviceable, in-expensive, do-it-yourself, store-away, back-yard solution.

Assuming...
1) C250 WB gross weight is about 3000lbs without trailer
2) The mast is in down position
3) Trailer to be removed forward once the boat is suspended and secured above the trailer
4) Center board is in "up" position
5) Somehow braced for sideways motion
6) Weight, bow and stern secured without damaging the hull (not sure how...)

any suggestions??








Henk & Johanna "Someday Lady"
'95 C250 WB #151
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britinusa
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Response Posted - 12/17/2012 :  19:55:15  Show Profile  Visit britinusa's Homepage
When I looked into crane hoist - boat stand - marina hard process, it worked out to around $450 for just a day on the stands! In Fort Laudedale.

Paul

Joint Decision.
C250WB 2005 Sail # 841.

Launched June 5th. 2005
Slipped alongside our house (on the trailer)



Updated August 2014
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SEAN
Admiral

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Response Posted - 12/19/2012 :  15:43:45  Show Profile
Wow ..you can get aiot of building supplys for that amount !

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dmpilc
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Response Posted - 12/21/2012 :  11:01:57  Show Profile
Since it is a water-ballast boat, the weight will be easier to manage. It should work using two jack stands at the stern method (lowering trailer tongue to place them) and build a 4x4 brace for the bow. Maybe 2 more jack stands after removing the trailer.
FWIW, we have guys that use 55 gallon steel drums and 4x4 cross beams to hold a C-22. With a WB C250, you are talking only 600-800 more pounds. One of our guys, Ken Palmer, got real creative and made swivel pads out of wood and 1/2" dia. bolts and drilled several peg holes in the 4x4 beams so he could place the swivel pads where needed. For the C250, maybe the 4x4's could be reinforced with a 2x6 on each side and a 2x4 in the middle, or use a 6x6 post.
Anyway, here are some photos to give you an idea for supporting the boat to get the trailer out from under it:
http://home.comcast.net/~viper_tn/pwpimages/DSC00971.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~viper_tn/pwpimages/DSC00976.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~viper_tn/pwpimages/DSC00970.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~viper_tn/pwpimages/DSC00972.jpg

DavidP
PO of 1984 C-25 SK/TR #4142 "Recess"
1975 C-22 SK #5459 "Shadowfax" Fleet 52
Percy Priest Yacht Club, Hamilton Creek Marina, Nashville, TN

Edited by - dmpilc on 12/21/2012 11:05:24
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britinusa
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Response Posted - 12/21/2012 :  11:33:50  Show Profile  Visit britinusa's Homepage
David, that setup for a C250 WB would scare the carp out of me!

But concept for the bow to allow trailer removal looks the right direction.

Thanks for posting.
Paul

Joint Decision.
C250WB 2005 Sail # 841.

Launched June 5th. 2005
Slipped alongside our house (on the trailer)



Updated August 2014
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SEAN
Admiral

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Response Posted - 12/21/2012 :  13:33:02  Show Profile
quote:
here are some photos to give you an idea for supporting the boat




Nice !!!

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zeil
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Response Posted - 12/21/2012 :  15:11:36  Show Profile
Thanks for sharing this David... it seems to offer a glimmer of hope that it can be done safely, economically and with perhaps some improvements

1) To obtain more stability, it could suggested to make the bow swivel pad stems a little longer and place the bow swivel pads further apart

2) Place a similar set-up directly behind the trailer instead of suspending the stern from a drum.

3) Wish to assure that the concrete blocks are on something solid without sagging or tipping.


Henk & Johanna "Someday Lady"
'95 C250 WB #151

Edited by - zeil on 12/23/2012 09:44:18
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dmpilc
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Response Posted - 12/21/2012 :  18:26:59  Show Profile
As I wrote above, I would use jack stands at the stern and the heavy beam at the bow. I added the pics primarily to show the beam and swivel pads. I tossed in the pic of the drums to show how it could be done, assuming the drums could handle the weight of a C250 WB. We also have one fleet member who works for an electric utility company. He got 1 or 2 surplus electric poles, cut 4 pieces long enough to plant in his backyard, and made his own lift.
Note that in the last photo, he used 2 solid concrete blocks to distribute the load evenly. Might be useful to place solid blocks on the bottom also.

DavidP
PO of 1984 C-25 SK/TR #4142 "Recess"
1975 C-22 SK #5459 "Shadowfax" Fleet 52
Percy Priest Yacht Club, Hamilton Creek Marina, Nashville, TN

Edited by - dmpilc on 12/22/2012 14:30:26
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delliottg
Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 12/22/2012 :  15:44:20  Show Profile  Visit delliottg's Homepage  Click to see delliottg's MSN Messenger address
I think the photos offer some insight into how it could be done relatively safely. I see a bunch of point loading that looks scary, like sitting on the edge of the 55 gallon drums, and on the edge of the cap blocks. Both look prone to catastrophic failure, if they could be switched to straight compression loads (which the blocks are designed to with stand, not so much the drums), you'd be much better off. I like the swivel pad arrangement, it seems like you could make up a set of four, use three to get the boat up off the trailer and the fourth to swap out as you moved the trailer forward (I'm thinking about my WK now, it'd be simpler with the WB because you don't have 3' of keel sticking down). In my case for what I'd want to do (paint underneath the trailer pads), I just need to be able to go straight up enough to be able to get under the pads (which can be dropped) by a few inches to get a tool in there to clean it, and then paint. I don't need to remove the trailer, at least I don't think so. When I did something similar last time I painted, I scared myself hearing all kinds of cracking noises as I tried to lift the stern, so I didn't. I got the front four pads cleaned out from under, but opted to leave them unpainted as I didn't want to further stress my hull with lifting it again. So now I'm sure I've got six little 1' square patches that are pretty much covered with marine growth again.

David
C-250 Mainsheet Editor


Sirius Lepak
1997 C-250 WK TR #271 --Seattle area Port Captain --
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britinusa
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Response Posted - 12/22/2012 :  18:03:16  Show Profile  Visit britinusa's Homepage
My concept of a Strap support would eliminate the point loading at the hull, but would need to be taken at the ends of the strap.

If the cross bar were made more substantial, such as a hull shaped beam reinforced with Ply on each face,

Time for some more sketches.

Paul

Joint Decision.
C250WB 2005 Sail # 841.

Launched June 5th. 2005
Slipped alongside our house (on the trailer)



Updated August 2014
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binky
Navigator

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Response Posted - 12/22/2012 :  20:25:56  Show Profile
Have you given any thought to a wrecker service, ie tractor trailer type recovery vehicle? They are more than capable of lifting your boat off the trailer and setting it onto stands at your house, if the space permits. Maybe you know someone in that line of work. They are always looking for ways to advertise their business. One local tow company here lifted a medium size airplane that had gotten stuck off the edge of a runway. Those guys make their money on rolled-over tractor trailers and the insurance companies...not on stuff like this. Just a thought....and they make like the challenge and free advertisement.

"Mast Confusion"
1983 SK, #3525
Ken
Hampton Roads, Va
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SEAN
Admiral

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Response Posted - 12/24/2012 :  05:31:57  Show Profile
here's the latest support i have made ..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chJsWdrELyc

its too heavy for me , and needs front to back support .



Edited by - SEAN on 12/24/2012 06:39:59
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zeil
Admiral

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Response Posted - 12/26/2012 :  12:01:58  Show Profile
The image, submitted by Sean, shows good distribution of weight onto the 4x4, excellent blocking of sideways force and a good and sturdy overall approach for both stern and bow.

Questions

1) What type of material did you use for shaping to the hull
2) Can all joints be dissembled for storage?


Click to View Full Sized Image

Henk & Johanna "Someday Lady"
'95 C250 WB #151

Edited by - zeil on 12/26/2012 12:03:15
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SEAN
Admiral

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Response Posted - 12/26/2012 :  16:17:55  Show Profile
quote:
1) What type of material did you use for shaping to the hull
2) Can all joints be dissembled for storage?



I made the hull shape from that thin plywood frome Home Depot its already cut 2`x4` 1/4 thick , then i glued 3 of them together with Gorilla glue ..
while there still wet i made like i was going to lift the boat and it forms to the hull .

I let it dry over night and it holds it shape .

2- the hull piece comes off that i store inside , the rest stays out side ..

I like the pictures Dave put in being lower to the beam I think is better , i made mine taller so i wouldnt have to stack so many blocks ..
and daves look like the swivel thats nice too , mine dont move .

the way i have it with sailboat stands in the back and the support in the front it seems presure is pushing the boat forward .
(for me its ok because im just painting under the pads)

if i was to do what paul wants to do maybe lift it with a beam pull the trailer out then place 5 sail boat stands like the yards does
then there is plenty of days to get the job done .


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zeil
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Response Posted - 01/01/2013 :  19:28:07  Show Profile


Thanks Sean and others for sharing good and very workable bck-yard idea's for a safe boat-from-the-trailer lifting concept without using the services of a yard.


Florida, winter 2007 center board up-haul cable trouble... again!!!


Florida, winter 2007 after our center board up-haul problems...

Henk & Johanna "Someday Lady"
'95 C250 WB #151
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