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Poky
Deckhand

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USA
23 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/13/2012 : 07:33:05

I'm interested in ideas other C25ers have on helpful tips that will make it easier to single hand sail (dousing sails, tiller control, docking, etc).

Thanks

Paul Pimentel
85 C25TR FK #4926
Bayview, Idaho
509-475-4479 cell/text

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9017 Posts

Response Posted - 11/13/2012 : 08:46:32

Wow--this could become our never-ending winter thread for 2012-13!

What have you done so far? What areas are you wondering about? Do you have roller furling? Have you seen the discussions here about the "Dock-o-Matic" (an invention here)? You can start by using the Search function above--there's too much to begin to describe. But with a few more hints on what you're wondering about, we're always glad to start a new conversation!

Edited by - on

tomh
1st Mate

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USA
83 Posts

Response Posted - 11/13/2012 : 08:56:55

I've been thinking about the same thing and building a project list for the spring. I have a roller furling and a tiller tamer but otherwise will be adding internal halyards coming back to the cockpit and updating the electrical to add an automatic bilge pump. Right now I can't think of anything else to add.

Edited by - on

JimGo
Admiral

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USA
962 Posts

Response Posted - 11/13/2012 : 10:57:05

Are you asking "what's the optimal set-up for single handing" or "can the stock set-up be single handed"? Those are two very different questions. I single handed my C25 several times, and she's essentially the "stock" configuration. I do have the main halyard run back to the cockpit, but I always had some issues actually hoisting from there, so I tended to do it at the mast. Take off the sail cover at the dock, and take of some of the sail ties while you're there too. Once you're in your sailing ground, point the boat into the wind, release the main sheet and vang, tie off the tiller, run forward and take off the remaining sail ties and stuff those in your front pocket. If you are out of room/off course, adjust the tiller, run back to the mast. Hoist the main, cleat it off, pop back to the cockpit. Adjust the tiller again, sheet in the main, adjust the vang (if desired/necessary), and you're off. If you have a roller furling headsail, and want to sail with just that (which can be done quite effectively), it's even easier since those lines are presumably already back in the cockpit.

When it's time to go home, you do the opposite. Again, with a RF headsail, that's easy. For the main, head into the wind, release the main sheet and vang, run forward and grab the 3 or 4 sail ties from your front pocket, and attack one or two of those. Check your course/location and make any adjustments. Attach the remaining sail ties from your pocket, then pop back to the cockpit. Sheet in the boom, and head for home. You can fix the sail once you're in the slip if it didn't flake that well for you when you tied it off earlier.

Is the default set-up the most efficient way to single hand? Heck no. But can it be done? Yes. And, FWIW, this was my first season with the boat, my first time owning a sailboat, and I didn't have a lot of experience leading up to this season.

One thing that I saw that I thought was a great idea was that someone had run a 1/4" or smaller line along the bottom of their boom. They tied the ball-type bungies at 1.5-2' intervals along that string, especially in the first several feet closest to the mast. This allowed them to have the sail ties at hand at all times. They just released the balls to free the sail, and attached them again when it was time to go home. No digging for sail ties or forgetting in which pocket they had been stashed. By focusing on the forward part of the boom, they also kept most of the bungies hanging over the cabin, where they were less likely to whack people while tacking, yet they still tamed the majority of the sail easily.

Edited by - JimGo on 11/13/2012 12:52:01

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5239 Posts

Response Posted - 11/13/2012 : 11:38:49

I have included a downhaul on the main brought back to the cockpit so I can douse it quickly in a blow.
I also have the jiffy reefing line set up to handle both the foreward and aft reefing adjustments with a pull on two lines.

Edited by - on

wegman
1st Mate

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USA
35 Posts

Response Posted - 11/13/2012 : 11:52:39

Poky, I also sail out of Bayview, Idaho, which for those unfamiliar with the area is on Lake Pend Oreille, a very large lake in North Idaho.

I would say that the single most important item for single-handing is jacklines and a harness/tether. If I fall overboard while single-handing in the large, cold lake in which we sail, death is a distinct possibility. You can make jacklines easily and cheaply from old halyards, run on each side to strong anchor points. My harness/tether is a Lorakis, but it is 25 years old and I am sure there are better models available now. One safety issue regarding tethers, that was pointed out by the recent deaths in a race off San Francisco, is the issue of a release at the harness. Apparently one sailor died when he was unable to release his harness after the boat capsized. At least that is what reporters surmised.

When single-handing, I do not go forward unless attached to the boat with my tether.

If the funds are available, I recommend an electric auto-pilot. It is almost like having a second crew member.

Single-handing is a great pleasure, and easily done in our boats.

Best,
Jerry

Edited by - on

jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1484 Posts

Response Posted - 11/13/2012 : 12:27:44

I second all of Jerry's (above) comments

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/13/2012 : 14:07:26

Instead of sail ties/bungees to secure the main, I simply use the tail of the main halyard to wrap the main along the length of the boom. To unlash, I just unwind the tail while standing at the end of the boom in the cockpit. Takes all of a few seconds to do.

Edited by - on

Poky
Deckhand

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USA
23 Posts

Response Posted - 11/13/2012 : 15:18:15

Thanks for the great safety tips. Another safety tip a friend mentioned is to always lower the swim ladder when sailing single.

I have a standard hank on setup with jib and mainsail halyards leading back to the port side cockpit. One nice feature is a thin bungee line running along the boom with hooks for a quick main wrap. I'm more concerned with dousing the jib and getting control of it in heavier winds. From what I've been told, raise the main first then jib? It has also been recommended to reef the main dockside at winds above 15. Or would some suggest going with only the 90 headsail in stronger conditions?

FWIW, Lake Pend Orielle is the 5th deepest lake in the US at ~ 1150 feet and hosts a Naval deep water sonar testing and submarine station. Like our own private Idaho ocean.

Edited by - on

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3994 Posts

Response Posted - 11/13/2012 : 16:25:37

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> It has also been recommended to reef the main dockside at winds above 15.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Good idea. 15 can turn into 20 in a blink of an eye and should it go to 10 its much easier to shake out the reef than to put it in. I sailed most of this past fall season with a reef in the main fine tuning with the RF.

Edited by - islander on 11/13/2012 16:30:03

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 11/13/2012 : 16:38:25

Here's the list for the sailing part, for docking I suggest an amidships line. Tie up the bow and stern at your leisure.

Lazy Jacks
All lines led aft
Two reef points and those lines led aft.
Autopilot
Jackline/s and a tether
Optional - electronic wind instruments. Helps when setting the AP into the wind.
RAM mic for VHF in the cockpit
Plotter in the cockpit

That's it...

sten

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/13/2012 : 18:31:26

I think one of the best things a singlehander can do is know, use, and become proficient with all of your sail controls.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4275 Posts

Response Posted - 11/13/2012 : 18:36:06

A roller furler is by far the best purchase I've made. I used to single hand out on Galveston Bay (normally windy and choppy) with hank-on sails and even being very careful I nearly got tossed several times when trying to release or secure the head-sail. I was usually winded from running back and forth by the time I got things up or down. Once I got everything up I was always thinking the whole time I was out about how I was going to fare when trying to secure the head-sail when coming in.

I finally added a down-haul for the head-sails and the main. If it was too rough to be on the fore-deck I could haul down the head-sail and pull it down tight against the deck and then tighten the sheets to keep it on the deck long enough for me to get into calmer water where I could safely secure it to the lifeline or pulpit.

With the furler I never leave the cockpit and a quick pull on the sheet or the furler line rolls it out or in.

In the lake or more protected body of water it was much easier to get the sails up or down single handed.

Honestly, since I got the furler I almost never fly my main. The boat is almost as fast and when I roll in the head-sail I'm done. Pull in to the dock like a powerboat and I'm ready to go home in 10 - 15 minutes. No more flaking the main and putting the cover on.

Next to the furler I'd say an autopilot would be the next best thing to purchase if single handing in rough water.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9017 Posts

Response Posted - 11/13/2012 : 19:58:43

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by GaryB
 ...Honestly, since I got the furler I almost never fly my main. The boat is almost as fast and when I roll in the head-sail I'm done.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I wouldn't go that far, but we definitely enjoyed sailing on the roll-up genny alone, especially in blustery conditions. It has more drive and less heeling force than the main, so we could relax through even some pretty big gusts. Best of all, with the furler, we could pull one string and go sailing, and then pull another and be ready to go home--no muss, no fuss! I can expand a little on tacking successfully under headsail alone--it's a little different, but not as much as I might have initially expected.

If I own another sailboat with a jib/genoa, it will have a furler. (Of course, all I have right now is an ignition key and the same V6 you find in an Acura.)

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 11/13/2012 20:03:34

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5239 Posts

Response Posted - 11/13/2012 : 21:16:13

Another safety feature to have if you sail solo is a line tied off from the bow cleat to the stern cleat that hangs over the side. One on starboard, one on port. If you fall overboard there is not much to grab onto except the engine (ouch!) or the swim ladder (if you happen to be near it). If you do it right, you can hook a leg over the line and step up back onto the boat.

Never trail a line! - it will invariably get caught in the prop, on the dock or on a piece of flotsam/jetsam, and with the boat's speed through the water - the odds of you grabbing it as the boat passes by is next to nil.

Edited by - Voyager on 11/13/2012 21:17:02

CarbonSink62
Navigator

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USA
208 Posts

Response Posted - 11/14/2012 : 11:36:28

What's the best method for tacking with the standard jib sheet hardware?

The winch and cleat arrangement can't be easily used with just one hand. I can tie off the tiller and set it up, but that leaves the jib flogging until I can get around to it. I can let the sheet out a bit with one hand (once it is set up) and recleat it, but taking it in just a bit still requires two hands because the winch is usually needed.

Also, my jib sheet stopper knots will only hang up on the sheet block; my boat only has the 110 jib, so the block is well forward of the cockpit. If the sheet runs all the way out, it's going to be that much more work to set up the sheet on the next tack.

I think (well, I know) I need the Forespar tiller extension that has the plate on the cockpit coaming that holds the bulbous end. That should make it a lot easier (and faster) to 'tie off' the tiller right after a tack as well as make it easier to point her into the wind to raise the sails.

Replacing the jib sheet cleats with cam-cleats seems like the next step, but the angle is bad. The cam-cleat exit would be pointing aft; not too bad for single handing, but a PITA for crew. I recall Harken used to make an arm that would rotate 360 around the winch base and hold a cam-cleat for the sheet. I haven't been able to find one even to show you guys a picture, let alone buy it. Maybe they are only for dinghy's?

What hardware mods have you guys made (if any) for tending the jib sheets single handed?

What is your procedure for tacking?

Thanks,

Ken

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 11/14/2012 : 12:25:22

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Poky
 Thanks for the great safety tips. Another safety tip a friend mentioned is to always lower the swim ladder when sailing single. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

A safer and less failure prone thing is to have a line from the ladder that goes down the transom (just above the water line) that lets you untie and pull the ladder down from the water.

That won't make noise, slow down your sailing, corrode the ladder in salt water, or depend on you remembering to lower it every time you go sailing.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by PokyI have a standard hank on setup with jib and mainsail halyards leading back to the port side cockpit. One nice feature is a thin bungee line running along the boom with hooks for a quick main wrap. I'm more concerned with dousing the jib and getting control of it in heavier winds. From what I've been told, raise the main first then jib? It has also been recommended to reef the main dockside at winds above 15. Or would some suggest going with only the 90 headsail in stronger conditions?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

If I were primarily sailing alone I'd add a downhaul to a hanked on jib. That would make it easy to lower the jib from the cockpit. This is as easy, more trustworthy, and a lot cheaper than roller furling. An autopilot would also be helpful because it would let you go forward while the boat keeps a steady course. The C-25 isn't the most balanced boat in the world, so that is otherwise difficult to do. In comparison a friend with a Yankee 30 (a very well balanced S&S designed boat), nothing led aft, and no autopilot will comfortably go forward in adverse conditions to change headsails. I don't think I could do that on my C-25 or my current boat.

I don't recommend sailing headsail only in strong winds. The mast can start pumping which is very hard on the rig. I know that people do sail headsail only, but I think the primary reason is that they have roller furling and don't want to deal with the sail cover and sail ties for the main sail.

The hardest part for me when single handing is docking, everything else is easier. If the wind is blowing your boat away from the dock then you don't have a lot of time to get the boat into position, get off of the boat, and get it tied up. I find that practice and technique helps here more than equipment.

I practice by trying solo docking even when sailing with crew (but having them ready to help in case something goes wrong).

A helpful technique is to route your mooring lines outside of the life lines but inside the toe rail back to the gate in the lifelines. You can then grab both of them as stepping off of the boat. Making a stopping strap (defined at http://captnmike.com/2011/02/10/tips-on-tying-your-boat-to-the-dock/) is also helpful.

alex

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 11/14/2012 : 12:33:18

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by CarbonSink62
 The winch and cleat arrangement can't be easily used with just one hand. I can tie off the tiller and set it up, but that leaves the jib flogging until I can get around to it. I can let the sheet out a bit with one hand (once it is set up) and recleat it, but taking it in just a bit still requires two hands because the winch is usually needed.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

A good way to fix this while spending money is to get self-tailing winches. Used Lewmar 16ST's shouldn't be that expensive (less than an autopilot) and make trimming the jib sheet a one handed job.

You can let go of the tiller for a few seconds safely. Start the tack (gently), trim the jib while there is no load on it as the boat passes through the dead zone, then cleat it off. Doing this is safer with a tiller tamer (inexpensive) set to have some friction so you can let your hand off of the tiller, but not so much that you can't quickly grab it and steer again. Using the tiller tamer would give you two free hands. I removed my tiller tamer when I got an autopilot and that was a mistake for single handing, I preferred the tiller tamer for this quick operations.

Finally, you don't need to tie a proper cleat hitch to tie off the jib sheet. Just loop it around quickly and jam the sheet over itself. It isn't as secure, but it is generally secure enough. I didn't know this until sailing with a friend who has non-self tailing winches. This just saves time.

Edited by - on

Joe Diver
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1218 Posts

Response Posted - 11/14/2012 : 12:49:08

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Poky
 FWIW, Lake Pend Orielle is the 5th deepest lake in the US at ~ 1150 feet and hosts a Naval deep water sonar testing and submarine station. Like our own private Idaho ocean.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Never heard of it before....so Googled it, read the Wiki and checked it out on GE...

What a cool lake! Looks beautiful....I bet sailing and overnighting is really wonderful. Nice dark skies out there? Is finding a place to drop the hook difficult? With the terrain and depth profile, it looks like you'd pull up to shore and tie to a tree.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5851 Posts

Response Posted - 11/14/2012 : 17:44:48

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by CarbonSink62
 What's the best method for tacking with the standard jib sheet hardware?

The winch and cleat arrangement can't be easily used with just one hand. I can tie off the tiller and set it up, but that leaves the jib flogging until I can get around to it. I can let the sheet out a bit with one hand (once it is set up) and recleat it, but taking it in just a bit still requires two hands because the winch is usually needed.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I defy anyone to tail a jibsheet with one hand. The trick is to learn to steer with your knee, while you use both hands to tail and/or trim the jibsheet.

I put two wraps on the winch, took in all the slack, and inserted the winch handle, before starting the tack.

It also helps to learn the most efficient way to tail a jibsheet. When you tail a jibsheet, grasp the line with your palm down, instead of palm up. When you pull it in, don't just pull it to your waist. Instead, pull the sheet past your hip and as far behind you as you can. By doing so, you will pull in about 6 feet of line with each stroke, instead of only about 3 feet.

To trim the sheet in and out while on a tack, I leave the winch handle in, steer with the knee, and use one hand to ease the line in or out, and use the other hand to turn the winch handle.

Steering with the knee is awkward at first, but it becomes easier with practice. If you're just cruising, I suppose you can get by with only the horn cleat, but I highly recommend that you install a set of either clam cleats or cam cleats for use with your primary winches. They will make everything easier.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 11/14/2012 17:47:06

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4275 Posts

Response Posted - 11/14/2012 : 18:25:15

I've never had my mast pump in heavy air while sailing on main and head-sail or head-sail only. Yes, I admit it, I'm lazy which is why I usually keep the mainsail covered and sail on the head-sail only.

I can regularly hit 5 knots with my 150 and at times 5.5. To me it's not worth the extra work to put the main up so I can hit 6 - 6.5 knots.

What's the rush?

Can you tell I'm a lazy cruiser?

Edited by - GaryB on 11/14/2012 18:26:26

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9017 Posts

Response Posted - 11/14/2012 : 19:16:08

I didn't experience the mast pumping either, except a few times at the dock. It's generally a sign of too much tension in the standing rigging--particularly the upper shrouds.

I installed a cam cleat on each "winch island" part of the coaming, positioned so I could slip the sheet under one horn of the stock cleat and then snap it into the cam cleat. (See below.) That held the sheet down in the cam--an alternative to putting the cam on a riser.

When tailing the sheet, I kept it up to prevent overrides, and then slipped it down under the horn and into the cam.

I had a smaller boat with no roller furler, and added a jib dousing line--it let me get the jib down without going on the foredeck. All it took was a small block near the forestay and a little cam cleat with a fairlead on the cabintop. On the C-25, I might have clamped a little swivel block at the base of the forward stanchion of the pulpit. Then a 3/16" line can go from the first hank below the head of the sail, down to the block and back to the cockpit. The line can be threaded through a couple of other hanks to keep it from flopping around. I recommend against attaching the dousing line to the head of the sail (with the halyard shackle) because I found this can pull the head over sideways and bind the upper hank on the stay.

All that said, roller furling, if you don't already have it, will change your life!

For holding the tiller, I used a bungee that ran from a stern cleat to the tiller, with a few wraps around the tiller, and then over to the other stern cleat. It's length was such that if I pulled the wraps forward on the tiller, it would tighten and hold the course. If I pushed it back, it would loosen and have no effect. To adjust the course, I just grasped the wraps and rotated them on the tiller. To make a quick maneuver or correction, I could just push or pull the tiller against the bungee. Simple, flexible, and cheap. I never saw a store-bought system (other than an auto-pilot) that I preferred, but I didn't do enough single-handing to justify the auto-pilot.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 11/14/2012 19:21:46

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9017 Posts

Response Posted - 11/14/2012 : 19:30:44

For docking single-handed, I used a "midship" spring-line from the jib sheet cleat, dropped it on a dock cleat, then left the engine at idle, in gear, to let the spring-line pull the boat into the dock--adjusting the engine direction if necessary to keep the bow in. I'd use forward or reverse depending on the position of the dock cleat. Then I could step off the boat, take care of bow and stern lines, and then turn off the engine. I later added midship cleats to the genoa tracks for spring-lines.

...not this exact one, but similar.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 11/14/2012 19:38:13

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/14/2012 : 19:38:20

Like Steve, as a long time singlehanded sailor, I've learned to work the tiller with my legs, knees, and feet. So much so, I think my lower extremities can now steer better than my hands.

Although somewhat hard to make out, in this photo I'm steering with my foot.

Edited by - on

pfduffy
Captain

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USA
317 Posts

Response Posted - 11/15/2012 : 07:27:12

I am a fairly inexperienced sailor and I found that the CDI furler completely changed my single handing experience. I often sail with my 5 year old daughter. Without the furler, I would sail only in the most benign conditions.

Edited by - on

Poky
Deckhand

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USA
23 Posts

Response Posted - 11/15/2012 : 19:36:22

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Diver
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Poky
 FWIW, Lake Pend Orielle is the 5th deepest lake in the US at ~ 1150 feet and hosts a Naval deep water sonar testing and submarine station. Like our own private Idaho ocean.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Never heard of it before....so Googled it, read the Wiki and checked it out on GE...

What a cool lake! Looks beautiful....I bet sailing and overnighting is really wonderful. Nice dark skies out there? Is finding a place to drop the hook difficult? With the terrain and depth profile, it looks like you'd pull up to shore and tie to a tree.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hi Scott,

Idaho has tons of public land and our lake has several remote camping sites with mooring balls and docks installed by the state. This was Kalispell country and the Kalispell nation considers Lake Pend Orielle the "Cradle of Civilization". The lake is simply majestic. 3K ft mountains going into a 1K ft deep lake. Come up and let's go sailing.

Edited by - on

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The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.