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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Swing Keel Epoxy Barrier

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albert
Captain

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USA
262 Posts

Initially Posted - 12/17/2002 : 22:24:38

I'm planning for my next haul out. I'd like to protect my keel by pressure washing, sanding, then applying Pettit 6980 Rustlok Steel Primer then Pettit 4777/4778 High Build Epoxy Primer. This is based on the following Pettit brochure for treating cast iron keels:

"Keels - Steel or Cast Iron: Disc sand or otherwise abrade surface to bright metal and clean off residue. Apply one coat of 6980 Rustlok Steel Primer, allowing to dry only 1/2 - 2 hours prior to overcoating, no more, no less! Apply one coat of 4777/4778 High Build Epoxy Primer. Let dry to recoat. Then, if fairing is required, apply Pettit's 7020/7025 Epoxy Fairing Compound. Sand smooth and follow with an additional coat of 4777/4778 High Build Epoxy Primer per label directions." Reference: (http://www.pettitpaint.com/pdf/epoxyprimer.pdf)

Two questions:

1) Has anyone had experience with these products?
2) I was planning to NOT remove the swing keel. I would block up the boat, lower the keel as far as possible, and treat. The keel head would NOT be treated. The keel removal process is difficult and I'll be doing it at a yard that would charge me laydays at $17 per day. Its not time or cost effective for me to do. Any reason why I should not do this?

Albert Iturrey
al@comhertz.com
Abacus': http://www.comhertz.com/abacus

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 12/18/2002 : 08:01:54

In the mid to late 70's I bought a c22 with a swing keel. The most frustrating part of painting the bottom was painting the swing keel. I'd want to get the whole keel, but couldn't figure a way to get the top of it done.

Not to get into the swing-wing-fin debate, but another reason why I'm glad osmepneo's po converted her to a wing! <img src=icon_smile_approve.gif border=0 align=middle>

41 days and counting

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

Edited by - osmepneo on 12/18/2002 08:03:38

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n/a
deleted

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163 Posts

Response Posted - 12/18/2002 : 08:27:49

I've never done a swing keel, but I did a Keel/centerboarder once. The advice pettit gave sounds about what I did: get down to shiny metal, prime, and barrier coat. It took quite a while, but I never had any problem with rust afterward. I think it would be best if you could drop the swinger and do the head as well. I used a grinder on the cast iron to get it shiny, but grit blasting would do it faster if you could rent a rig.

Edited by - on

markolito
1st Mate

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Italy
95 Posts

Response Posted - 12/18/2002 : 10:39:38

I was thinking about doing the same... prob in early february.
i wanted to have the yard remove the keel for me, so that i could have some fiberglass work done (by the yard) where the keel head cracked the trunk. anyone have pics of the underneath of the c25 with the keel romoved? with the keel out i could make sure to do things once, and well.. re-paint the botton and fix the trunk at the same time :)

bye bye bonus...

-marco

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albert
Captain

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USA
262 Posts

Response Posted - 12/18/2002 : 13:20:11

What would be the consequences of not treating the keel head? Could seawater leach in behind the barrier coat and swell the barrier coat off?

My biggest concern with the keel head are the growth of clams. Its almost impossible to bottom coat this area which results in clams growing on it which then scratch, cut, abrade the fiberglass in the trunk.

Albert Iturrey
al@comhertz.com
Abacus': http://www.comhertz.com/abacus

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osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 12/18/2002 : 18:45:18

Albert,

Is the keel head under water? If so then it is subject to the environment of the water, and would react just as any other part of the keel would react. It is that reaction that barrier coat and epoxy finish is meant to deal with. While I suspect the head is free of water, there must be some of the keel that is both in the water and and in the trunk - that is part of the keel that you need to protect.

I'm not sure what you mean the clams growing and what is impossible to do. Several years ago the Hudson had a particularly rampent year for barnicles, and osmepneo had a sever crop. I repainted the bottom with Interlux Micron Extra with Biocide and didn't have the problem again.

Hope this helps,

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 12/18/2002 : 21:49:59

This past September I removed the swing keel from my 22. The most rusted out part of the keel was the very top. That's because the previous owners never removed it. What a pain in the neck job that was.
I'm still shopping for a C25 wing

Frank

Frank

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osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 12/18/2002 : 22:45:03

It's interesting how our past experiences influence our decisions. I could very well have been that po because I never took care of the head of the swing keel on my c22. Never knew that that kind of maintenance was necessary.

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

Edited by - on

mroettersr
Navigator

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USA
148 Posts

Response Posted - 12/18/2002 : 23:40:55

Painting the keel on my Catalina 22 was a pain. Simply dropping the keel down would cause it to pivot on the trailer and possible damage the stern end of the keel trunk. The boat had to be jacked up so the keel could be lowered and braced for painting and repair. It wasn't a nice job. I don't know if the same considerations would apply to the 25. With the 1500 lb. keel and the larger hull, it appears to be moving out of the do-it-yourself relm.

Mike Roetter
'83 C25 #3568 SK/SR
Marblehead on Lake Erie

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 12/18/2002 : 23:47:48

Albert & others,
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I was planning to NOT remove the swing keel. I would block up the boat, lower the keel as far as possible, and treat. The keel head would NOT be treated. The keel removal process is difficult and I'll be doing it at a yard that would charge me laydays at $17 per day. Its not time or cost effective for me to do. Any reason why I should not do this? ... What would be the consequences of not treating the keel head? Could seawater leach in behind the barrier coat and swell the barrier coat off?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>Although I'm a big fan of doing a thorough job on swing keel refinishing, and therefore doing it only once, $17/lay-day would be painful. Could you bring the boat home on a trailer, and work on it there? As for seawater leaching in behind the barrier coat, etc., I expect that it would, but maybe not very far or fast. Here's a link to a post I wrote on swing keel refurbishing awhile back: [url="http://trailersailor.com/forums/tsarchives6/index.cgi?read=154102"]Swing Keel Refurb. link[/url], which I suspect many or you have already read. In it I advocate sandblasting followed by acid etching rather than chipping/grinding/sanding/etc. because it's been my experience in dealing with rust that it's very important to get rid of all of it at once. Any remaining iron oxide will continue to eat deeper into good metal and expand in volume, prying away at whatever barrier coat was applied to prevent rust from reoccuring. We've probably all seen this happen on auto body rust repairs.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Is the keel head under water?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>Yes. The static waterline of a swing keel Catalina 25 is maybe an inch or so below the level of the platforms the main cabin settee cusions rest on, and the swing keel trunk, including the keel head, is entirely below that.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>My biggest concern with the keel head ... Its almost impossible to bottom coat this area<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>Are you familiar with the 3/8" all-thread method of lowering the head of the keel for servicing? (I had an image of this on another server, but I couldn't get to it just now. I can e-mail it if anyone would like, it's about 500KB.) Using this method would allow you access to the forward portion of the trunk for cleaning and painting, etc. Maybe even repairs if you have very thin flexible wrists, and can see around corners.

I hope some of you find some of this helpful.

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1768 Posts

Response Posted - 12/19/2002 : 09:03:25

Are you familiar with the 3/8" all-thread method of lowering the head of the keel for servicing? (I had an image of this on another server, but I couldn't get to it just now ...) Using this method would allow you access to the forward portion of the trunk for cleaning and painting, etc. Maybe even repairs if you have very thin flexible wrists, and can see around corners.

-- Leon Sisson


I haven't used the threaded-bolt method for lowering the keel, but I sure think it is a cool idea ... that's why I saved Leon's photo:

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2ce06b3127cce9121fc1c8f850000002410" border=0>

Good luck!

Buzz Maring, C-25 SK/SR #68, "Freya"

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 12/19/2002 : 12:19:13

How exactly does this work? Do you replace one hanger bolt at a time with the threaded rod, then with all of the rods installed, start backing off each nut? Considering the length of the threaded rods, I would think it would take some time if the process, as I see it, were: Two turns on nut A, two turns on nut B, two turns on nut C,...and so on.

I'm also assuming that to use this method, the boat would have to be either on stands or be on a trailer with removable crossmembers.

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
C25 SR/FK
On the hard, 200ft from Lake Erie

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osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 12/19/2002 : 17:20:16

As Leon said, the keel head is under water. And, therefore, corrosion would occur in that area of the keel (that which is within the keel trunk). That tells me that if you are going to do the swing keel of c25 you MUST do the the whole thing. Otherwise, we risk your otherwise excellant work.

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

Edited by - on

albert
Captain

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USA
262 Posts

Response Posted - 12/21/2002 : 00:58:44

I think I'll follow Leon's threaded bolt method when I actually do the work.

Thanks for the help.

Albert Iturrey
al@comhertz.com
Abacus': http://www.comhertz.com/abacus

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osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 12/21/2002 : 07:35:25

Albert,

Seems to me that you are making a wise choice. Good luck with your maintenance project.

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

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Ellis Bloomfield
1st Mate

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USA
85 Posts

Response Posted - 12/21/2002 : 17:06:17

Don, I used the threaded bolt method and speeded it up by also using a hydraulic jack and lowering the keel an inch at a time. Take the pressure off with the jack and crank down the nuts an inch or so and then lower it to that point, etc. I raised the boat on the trailer by lowering the front of the trailer to the ground, blocking up the stern of the boat and then raising up the trailer hitch. Doing this several times will allow you to block up the boat by inserting two inch hi density foam (the blue or pink stuff) between the rollers and the hull. This allowed plenty of room for the swing keel to clear the boat. Took the better part of the afternoon to replace the keel bolts and cable. Wish I'd of thought of refinishing it then!

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