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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Retractable Keel Maintenance/Refurbishing Issues

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Thee and Me
Deckhand

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18 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/21/2009 : 12:24:25

I'm a new Catalina 25 owner (and former San Juan 24 owner) looking for some information and assistance on refurbishing and retrofitting, particularly as it pertains to the keel system.

The boat is a '79 Catalina 25, Std. Rig, with a retractable keel (her name is Thee and Me). My plan is to keep her in the water (a salt water bay) on a mooring buoy in the summer months (~May-Oct), and pull her in the winter. She is currently on the E-Z loader trailer that I bought with the boat. I live in the Pacific Northwest near Seattle.

The previous owner trailered her up to my house. After reading the Owner's manual subsequent to the sale, I noticed that there are several maintenance issues and retrofit kits associated with the retractable keel.

Further, I noticed that the keel had been trailered (about 75 miles on mostly freeway) with the keel up (i.e., trailing edge of the keel not resting on the trailer). Based on my reading of the manual, this is not recommended. I'm wondering about the potential impact on the keel lifting system.

In addition to the above, I'm looking for answers to the following questions, as well as any
other helpful information regarding keel issues for this boat.

1. Are the following retrofit kits still available for the retractable keel?:
a. Keel Hanger Casting Kit (Part No. E40035);
b. Keel Centering Spacer Kit (Part No. E4110);
c. Keel Lifting Bracket Kit (Part No. E1303).

2. With regard to the Wing Keel Retrofit Assembly:
a. Are there dimension drawings available (e.g. draft)?
b. What is the impact (pro and con) on sailing to windward with the wing keel?

FYI:

In order to protect the hull during mooring, I am planning to strip the old bottom paint, encase the keel in epoxy, and apply ablative bottom paint to the keel, keel trunk interior, and the entire bottom.

As it pertains to the keel, I see my options as either (1) refurbishing the existing keel system as best I can, or (2) depending upon input on the wing keel dimensions and performance, install the wing keel system.

Thanks in advance for your time, attention to my questions and request for information.

Best regards, JT

Edited by - on

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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3993 Posts

Response Posted - 06/21/2009 : 13:25:21

May I first say welcome to the forum and congrats on the c25. All the kits you asked for are all available here http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm Others on this site have done the maintenance on the swing so I'm sure they will be right in here to help. Mines a wing keel so I don't know a lot about the swing. Once again Welcome!

Edited by - on

jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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1484 Posts

Response Posted - 06/21/2009 : 17:33:09

Welcome to The Forum! You will certainly find an abundance of information, experience, advice and anecdotes here-in. I suggest speaking w/ Lowell at CD...he can speak well to you about the keel swap issue, as can several members...trailering w/ the keel suspended by the lifting cables is an issue w/ respect to shock loads due to bouncing around over road bumps...the winch mount is plenty sturdy and unlikely to suffer damage, my concern would be w/ the point of connection at the keel... BTW, if you keep the swing keel, plan to replace the lift line every 2 years, especially in salt water.

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Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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3754 Posts

Response Posted - 06/21/2009 : 18:59:27

As unknowns, I would replace the cable and pivot ball and replace the keel attachment with the upgrade. I would then sail it before doing anything with the castings and pivot pin. I replaced the pin and sleeved its hole in the keel on Pearl was on the trailer without to much difficulty. If the keel bangs around, you may have to do the same, but replacing the castings is your option - I didn't bother. Replacing the cable is straight forward, but it can be a lot cheaper to have a local rigger make your cable rather than buying it from CD - mine was half the CD cost.

Edited by - on

Thee and Me
Deckhand

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18 Posts

Response Posted - 06/22/2009 : 12:19:02

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by jerlim
 Welcome to The Forum! You will certainly find an abundance of information, experience, advice and anecdotes here-in. I suggest speaking w/ Lowell at CD...he can speak well to you about the keel swap issue, as can several members...trailering w/ the keel suspended by the lifting cables is an issue w/ respect to shock loads due to bouncing around over road bumps...the winch mount is plenty sturdy and unlikely to suffer damage, my concern would be w/ the point of connection at the keel... BTW, if you keep the swing keel, plan to replace the lift line every 2 years, especially in salt water.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Hi Jerlim,

Thanks for your prompt reply and your kind words of welcome.

I suppose this is a rookie question, but how do I contact "Lowell at CD"?

With regard to the lifting cable, I concur with your observation and am also concerned about the cable point of connection to the keel. I believe your recommendation about the lift line replacement is also indicated in the owners manual.

If you have a swing keel on your boat:

How much of an issue is this "keel clunk"? Is this occasional, or relatively common when the boat is moving to windward?

The manual also spoke about water spillage on the cushions of the aft quarterberth. I am assuming this is back splash from the lifting cable? Is this occasional or common?

Best regards,

JT

Edited by - on

Thee and Me
Deckhand

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18 Posts

Response Posted - 06/22/2009 : 12:20:22

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by islander
 May I first say welcome to the forum and congrats on the c25. All the kits you asked for are all available here http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm Others on this site have done the maintenance on the swing so I'm sure they will be right in here to help. Mines a wing keel so I don't know a lot about the swing. Once again Welcome!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Edited by - on

Thee and Me
Deckhand

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18 Posts

Response Posted - 06/22/2009 : 12:25:35

Islander,

Thanks for your words of welcome and information. I am happy to hear that the kits are available.

With regard to the wing (fin) keel, what is the draft and width of the wing assembly? I have an EZ loader trailer, and am wondering how much of a retrofit would be required to accommodate the new keel.

Edited by - on

Thee and Me
Deckhand

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Response Posted - 06/22/2009 : 12:46:57

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave5041
 As unknowns, I would replace the cable and pivot ball and replace the keel attachment with the upgrade. I would then sail it before doing anything with the castings and pivot pin. I replaced the pin and sleeved its hole in the keel on Pearl was on the trailer without to much difficulty. If the keel bangs around, you may have to do the same, but replacing the castings is your option - I didn't bother. Replacing the cable is straight forward, but it can be a lot cheaper to have a local rigger make your cable rather than buying it from CD - mine was half the CD cost.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hi Dave,

Thanks for your words of welcome and the recommendations on the retractable keel. TO the best of my knowledge, the pivot pin was replaced (the former owner indicated he had done so, and the shoe casting bolts appear new). If I stay with the retractable keel I will adhere to your recommendations. JT

Edited by - on

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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3993 Posts

Response Posted - 06/22/2009 : 15:49:24

JT, The draft of the wing is 2'11" I'm going to guess at the width at around 2'6"" -3'0"" or so. Maybe someone else here knows the exact width. I don't think it would be to much to change the trailer. To retro a wing on the boat is a really really BIG job let alone a big expense. Maybe sail the boat for a season with the swing and go from there. Here is a photo, the best I have showing the wing. Sorry its not better but it was really for the winter cover.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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3754 Posts

Response Posted - 06/22/2009 : 19:33:51

The "clunk" will be present if the keel can wobble d/t the absence of nylon spacers between the keel and the castings; it can bang around if the pivot pin or the hole in the keel is worn. If it moves, you won't point as high or track as well, and you may or may not be close to catastrophic failure. The water entering around the keel cable is easily prevented with a length of hose over the cable. I discribed my experience on another thread of over-drilling the keel and sleeving it for the new pivot pin using the two parts from CD. I also used stainless washers next to the castings to distribute the compression loads and wear over the entire nylon spacer. The results have been satisfactory. The concensus opinion on pointing iseems to be that the swing will be only slightly better than the wing, but the CMG will be noticeably better due to more lift and less leeway. The deeper keel probably has greater stability and less heel. They both draw about the same with the keel up, but the wing is essentially maintainance free. Everything is a trade off.

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Thee and Me
Deckhand

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18 Posts

Response Posted - 06/22/2009 : 23:39:46

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave5041
 The "clunk" will be present if the keel can wobble d/t the absence of nylon spacers between the keel and the castings; it can bang around if the pivot pin or the hole in the keel is worn. If it moves, you won't point as high or track as well, and you may or may not be close to catastrophic failure. The water entering around the keel cable is easily prevented with a length of hose over the cable. I discribed my experience on another thread of over-drilling the keel and sleeving it for the new pivot pin using the two parts from CD. I also used stainless washers next to the castings to distribute the compression loads and wear over the entire nylon spacer. The results have been satisfactory. The concensus opinion on pointing iseems to be that the swing will be only slightly better than the wing, but the CMG will be noticeably better due to more lift and less leeway. The deeper keel probably has greater stability and less heel. They both draw about the same with the keel up, but the wing is essentially maintainance free. Everything is a trade off.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Dave/Islander,

At this point I believe I am going to install all of the retrofit kits available for the swing keel and then sail it to see how she goes (per Islander's recommendation).

So, as I understand it the casting retrofit takes up play at the pivot point, and then the spacer retrofit constrains the movement of the head of the keel within the trunk to eliminate the "clunk"? My take on Dave's comments is that clunk is not a normal phenomenon, and is evidence of wear at the pivot point, that may or may not be precursor to catastrophic failure, or am I mistaken?

The owner's manual appeared to discuss keel clunk as a normal issue that C25 owners put up with, so to speak. Speaking from a mechanical point of view, 1500lb of iron keel moving laterally in the trunk doesn't sound like an acceptable situation (hence the retrofit kits), but I didn't see anything in the manual that implied that the clunk was dangerous situation, only a less than ideal situation.

FYI, I contacted a yard to see if they can drop the keel so I can apply bottom paint to the interior of the trunk (part of it appears to show a half-hearted attempt to apply some Rustoleum, but the forward part of the trunk does not appear to have any paint on it. I know the the boat has only been in salt water for a relatively period of time (maybe three months or so), and so it makes sense that this part of the hull could be in satisfactory shape without bottom paint.

In addition, I am also planning to have the yard inspect the cable and install the retrofit for the cable attachment to the keel.

Some questions/comments:

1. If I decide to drop the keel myself (with the help of my nephew)., are there any tips or tricks that I should be aware of with regard to securing the boat and reinstalling the keel?

2. Is there a common public source to purchase some of the buttresses they use in the yards? I have access to a large barn with a dirt floor where I can put her up. Based on the construction of the EZ loader it doesn't appear that I can drop the keel with the boat on the trailer.

3. I was planning to encapsulate the swing keel in epoxy in lieu of installing zincs. Any thoughts pro and/or con on this? As recommended, I am planning to take it down to the metal, fill, and, prime and paint.

Many thanks to you for your past and future assistance! I sincerely appreciate it.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3754 Posts

Response Posted - 06/23/2009 : 10:39:50

If you have means to raise the boat high enough on jack stands, you can lower the keel enough to do most of the work; if you remove the keel, you will need a substantial frame to hold the keel and get it out from underneath to do the work. Removing the keel is the best way to resurface and barrier coat it, and repositioning it for reattachment can be a time consuming process. I paid the yard for that service and upgrading the cable attachment. You can buy or rent jackstands, but you will have to explore your local options - ask the marina if you think you want to do it in the barn. The entire pivot assembly can be removed with the boat on the trailer with a few wooden wedges to control the position of the keel and a good floor jack, allowing easier trial assembly afer grinding the new castings to size. Keep in mind that without spacer washers on the pivot pin (that is what I was refering to in my previous post, not the spacer kit attached to the keel), a close fit can grind away your new barrier coat. The spacer kit reportedly tends to fall off the keel, so you may want to drill and countersink the disks and drill and tap the keel. A search for "sleeved keel" thread will bring up a brief discription of my sleeving effort. Another on keel zincs will provide more thorough information on drilling and tapping the keel for zincs, and several opinions. Clean, barrier coat, and you still need zincs, but it is not difficult.

Occasional clunks are normal as you fall off a steep wave or something, but you shouldn't hear them every time you tack or bounce a little. With my new sleeve and pin and snug lateral positionong with a stainless and nylon washer on each side of the keel, Pearl is quiet. The catastrophic failure I mentioned before is only if the pin hole is so worn that there isn't enough iron forward of the pin and the keel breaks and falls off. You are already addressing the cable issue. Fairwinds

Edited by - on

Deric
Captain

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USA
408 Posts

Response Posted - 06/23/2009 : 15:58:04

JT,

Welcome to the group.

Last year I replaced the following:

Cable
Cable Pin
Ball
Ball Pin

This past year I replaced:

Pivot brackets
Hanging Bolts
Pivot Pin

I also epoxied the keel, barrier coat, and anti fouling paint on the keel.

I suspect that having the swing keel in salt water will require more monitoring and care of the unit. I also read on the site somewhere that someone rinsed the keel cable with fresh water each time they cranked the keel up after sailing. The idea was to get the salt of the cable.

In my opinion, the cost for the replacement parts is a small cost if insurance compared to the risk and damage a boat could sustain as a result of a mishap.

Search the past threads and you will read a wealth of information, facts and opinions and both.

Best,
Deric

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3754 Posts

Response Posted - 06/23/2009 : 21:22:00

Yep, if you want a lot of opinions just mention swing keel, tow vehicle, or outboard brand.

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