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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 250 Specific Forum

Rudder upgrade

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Falcon113
Deckhand

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USA
8 Posts

Initially Posted - 12/03/2012 : 19:53:32

Hi everyone,
I bought a 1995 C250 WB (hull# 070) last September and I had enjoyed her almost every week-end since in the Chesapeake bay.
I read all threads in regards to the rudder performance and indeed, she is getting somewhat difficult to control when the wind is about 15kts and above. My boat is equipped with its original rudder.
I read an article in the "technical tips" that Catalina is offering some special commercial conditions for a rudder upgrade. I contacted my local Catalina dealer: he received a very vague answer from Catalina.
Can someone help me to know what are the options for a rudder upgrade and how to proceed?
Thank you.

<b><i>Mathimel Bohemia River</b></i>

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 12/03/2012 : 20:29:25

Welcome Christian, can you also provide some info about the boat... Wheel or Tiller?

Thanks.

Paul

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2012 : 07:37:29

The 250 has seen several iterations of rudders from Catalina and there are some after market offerings. As you have discovered, the original provided inadequate lift to keep the boat from rounding up in a breeze. Catalina offered a deal to upgrade it for shipping charges only and if IIRC, the cost was around $45 for rudder iteration II.

Iteration II proved to have the needed control but being unbalanced, required major helm effort and Catalina responded by offering a III at cost to them, which again IIRC was $300.

The third was produced in two models, with a longer for the wing keel and a shorter for the water ballast. It proved to be very good for the wing keel and ok for the water ballast if sailing in moderate conditions but unsuitable for aggressive conditions as like the first, it had inadequate grip to control rounding up. It would not work well with an auto pilot because it was too often in a state of increased angle of attack and the pilot simply wasn't able cope.

By the time of the third iteration, Catalina dropped the beaching kick up rudder offering and the third was only made in a blade offering. With the lack of a beaching option and the poor Catalina offerings, some w/b owners sought alternatives in after market offerings from IDA Rudders and perhaps others.

I and others followed my lead and modified the 2nd beaching (modifications were to the rudder head) to obtain balance and it is likely the best rudder for the water ballast model, having adequate grip, ease of helm as well as forgiveness of a beaching rudder and the auto pilot likes it. Those rudders were sometimes available from those who upgraded to the third but now may be hard to find and even then, the age has solidified the electrolysis of the stainless bolts into the aluminum frame and the mods would be much harder to do, though not impossible.

All this is more info than you likely wanted or need but it might help get perspective. If you want beaching, it will likely have to come from an aftermarket. If you want ease of control with somewhat adequate control, then Catalina's third will work though not the best performer in aggressive conditions. If you want the best control possible in aggressive conditions, then ask for the third generation for the wing keel model as it is a longer rudder than the water ballast version. The trade off is that it must be mounted after the boat is launched from the trailer and unshipped before retrieving the boat to the trailer as it will not clear the ground while on the trailer. Catalina will likely expect you to waive liability if going with the longer on the water ballast and it might be unsuitable for the shallower waters sometimes encountered in the Chesapeake.

Catalina will likely provide a third at cost... though I've no knowledge of what that has been recently.

Edited by - on

Falcon113
Deckhand

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USA
8 Posts

Response Posted - 12/06/2012 : 15:47:48

Paul,
My boat is equipped with a tiller.

Arlyn,
Thank you for your detailed answer: it is exactly the kind of info I needed.
I definitively would like to keep the beaching and shallow water capability.
So far my Catalina dealer is offering me an upgrade at approx. $750.00 (clearly out-of-my budget) but I don't even know the definition of this new rudder. I am still in discussion.
Based on the definition and their best price I may need more info on the aftermarket solution.
In the meantime, I will check if I still can remove the stainless bolts from the aluminum frame of my current rudder.
Thank you for your help.
Christian

Edited by - on

bear
Admiral

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USA
909 Posts

Response Posted - 12/06/2012 : 20:02:25

I have 95' WB S/N 89, when I purchase Brandy in 2001 she had the series 1 beaching rudder. Boat would round up at will. Purchased an aftermarket IDA beaching rudder in 2007. I have the 110 genoa and two reefing points in the main sail. With the 110 rolled in about half way and the second reef in the main not discouraged by lake conditions now. Never came close to rounding up since. I think you will be much happier with an upgrade. I'm no professional here but am very comfortable in heavier winds with that rudder. This is the time of year to make a deal.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 12/08/2012 : 19:58:23

Having a beaching rudder head and given the cost of upgrades, might be impetus enough to get creative and add some depth to your original rudder. A problem however is the added depth might compromise the integrity of the blade but it might be worth the risk with not much to lose in the doing.

At this juncture in time lapse, getting the rudder head apart without major effort would be difficult because the stainless bolts will undoubtedly be seized in the aluminum head by electrolysis. So, I'd add about ten inches to the bottom of the rudder and hope for the best as far as strength. In the doing, I'd add a little forward as well to get balance, perhaps an inch or slightly more as doing so would give opportunity to lay a carbon fiber or aluminum tube down the forward edge of the rudder extending to the bottom of the added appendage to integrate the additional area and add the strength that will be needed. I can envision the effort a reasonably simple task for someone somewhat knowledgeable about working with fiberglass.

I'm thinking a do it yourself project but one might find a skilled craftsman willing for $300 including materials as a day's labor ought to do it.

Will post a pic shortly

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 12/08/2012 20:15:30

drakej
Deckhand

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USA
11 Posts

Response Posted - 03/04/2013 : 12:26:59

Hi All,
I to am having similar control problems. Andiamo is a 2002 C250 WB with the Edson wheel steering pedestal and system provided by Catalina.
I am not sure which rudder I have on the boat. The rudder blade when remove from the mounting bracket is approximately 65" long and is approximately 12" wide. Can someone confirm rudder version this on is?

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 03/05/2013 : 05:25:59

Drake, your comment about removed from the "bracket" tends to indicate you have a beaching rudder and the size you listed of the rudder when removed from the rudder head indicates it is a generation II.

If so, you have the better rudder Catalina produced for the water ballast model. There are however some issues causing the control problems.

1. The hold down system was inadequately engineered and allows the rudder to rake aft and when doing so go badly out of balance causing great effort needed on the helm. The fix is to engineer a system that holds the rudder fully seated forward against the frame of the rudder head. <more>

2. The rudder/control head were not given proper balance to minimize helm effort. <more>

3. The Edson Small Boat Steering System has design shortcomings that don't match well the monster weather helm that can sometimes afflict the C250. <more>

More:

1. There are several options to correct the aft positioning of the rudder in the head. The first effort is to abandon Catalina's rivet/detent positioning system as it didn't/doesn't work well (remve the rivets. The two most popular solutions are a. to use a wooden dowel through the hole now vacated by the rivets. The dowel serves as a shear pin. If sheered, unfortunately the fix takes some time and effort to install another pin. Fix b. is a better solution... it provides a bungee to hold the rudder forward. At first thought, one might think...no way can a bungee do that. It can and works great.

2. If one wants to really optimize the rudder, it needs balancing. That can be accomplished by disassembling the rudder head and removing some of the frame to allow the rudder to rake further forward. At this point of age, the screws in the rudder head are difficult to remove so I'd wait and do this mod until other efforts are done and if one is still unhappy with helm.

[url="http://pages.suddenlink.net/arlyn/sailing/ruddermod.html"]balancing the 2nd generation beaching rudder[/url]

3. The Edson Small Boat Steering System is not optimal for the 250.

a. It does not have arc compensation (no quadrant) or method to deal with arc compensation.
b. It does not have a favorable wheel to rudder ratio to reduce helm effort
c. It uses sheathed cables that have more drag than open cables systems.

A much more optimal system can be had by conversion to an open cable system.

[url="http://pages.suddenlink.net/arlyn/sailing/steeringcable.html"]Open Cable Steering Conversion[/url]

I'm not hawking to sell a conversion kit. While I've done so for many years, I'm now out of many of the supplies needed and frankly am much more busy with my business than I'd prefer. I'd hoped to be more on the retired side of part time than the full time side that has been the case the last year or so.

The plans are freely offered with the hope that those wanting a conversion would engage it themselves. I do realize that the conversion goes easier with a lathe and milling machine and hence why I responded to request to produce a kit. I just don't know that I want to continue. I've produced perhaps seventy kits over the years with the hope that they would provide the much improved helm that I found. It was a labor to improve the sailing experience for myself and others.

Edited by - on

Russ.Johnson
Commodore

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USA
843 Posts

Response Posted - 03/05/2013 : 16:31:09

I have a 2004 C250 Water Ballast (hull 793) with wheel steering
The factory rudder was a 3rd generation (short rudder)

I have since purchased a 2nd generation kick-up rudder that Arlyn shown above.
Next, I followed Arlyn's suggestion to mill the aluminum frame to rake the rudder forward.
The 2nd generation kick-up rudder works best for me.

Next, I also converted the Edson wheel steering from the dual sheathed cables (pull/pull design) to Arlyn's open cable conversion.
Another fine addition.
Note: earlier Catalina models had the Edison single sheathed cable (push/pull design)

Here's a picture of the 3rd generation (short rudder, about 5 feet)
Notice the wheel steering bracket (Black) and the balancing, forward of the gudgeon/pinion under the hull.

Edited by - Russ.Johnson on 03/05/2013 16:35:32

drakej
Deckhand

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USA
11 Posts

Response Posted - 03/06/2013 : 17:14:37

Arlyn and Russ,
Thanks for the feedback. I am going to make sure the rudder is locked as forward as it can go. I plan make the changes to the hold down system first.
The approach the modification rudder frame to increase the rack as described in Arlyn's earlier posting. I am would like to know how much material to
remove. Do you take on a 1/4" and then taper it back to daylight point at the top of the frame, or is the amount greater or less. I would like to
know what has worked for you. After making these changes I will look into trying to replicate the steering changes using the cable system Arlyn developed.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 03/06/2013 : 20:47:47

I think you've lined out the right course to first make certain that the rudder isn't raked aft any and determine if that helm is suitable for your needs. To give something to compare too... if making all three mods, the hold down, the rudder forward rake and the steering conversion... a four year old girl can helm the boat no problem in 12 mph winds.

IIRC, remove about 1/4" at bottom tapered to nothing at top.

As I've noted, the hardest problem of the mod is getting the old bolts out. You might soak the screws with penetrating oil several times for a few days and give them a try with an impact extractor driver but they could be seized. If so, I'd use very sharp drill bits and drill the heads of the screws off to remove the side plates. Then I'd have the screws pressed out rather than trying to drill them out. It will require a hydraulic shop press and the right pressing tooling to avoid breaking the frame.

Edited by - on

drakej
Deckhand

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USA
11 Posts

Response Posted - 03/10/2013 : 23:39:26

I have the bolts out and I am ready to make the modification to the frame. I plan to also make the bungee hold down modification. What is the recommended way to remove the rivet from the rudder blade? Also, what was the diameter of the bungee cord used use for the bungee hold down?

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 03/17/2013 : 08:25:07

The rivets will come out quite easily by inserting a thin putty knife under the edge and prying.

IIRC, 5/16 bungee.

Good going on getting the bolts out... that likely wasn't a lot of fun.

The wedge piece can be cut off using one of many methods. A carbide tipped saw blade in either a table saw, or circular saw would work. A jig saw with a fine hack saw tooth blade would also work well or a milling machine if one has access.

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